An SCCA safety steward would E36 M3 a brick....sideways at this.

pilotbraden wrote: children are easy and fun to make.

Only for us guys

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Knurled wrote: Two more points: Are the people driving unhelmeted in caged cars wearing full safety harnesses or just the OE 3-point belts that allow the upper torso to move around by design? One of these is road legal in the US and one is not. I know of one prominent rally driver in North America who retired because of cumulative brain injury.

Both on most cases, one or the other in some. I've never understood why people get so bent out of shape about harnesses. When I was younger and dumber I drove on the street with harnesses. Go to any rally in this country and on the transits between stages both the driver and co driver have harnesses on. Has anyone ever got a ticket for harnesses on the street? Every se7en I've seen in this country has 4/5/6 point harnesses in it on the street as well

I have had the opportunity to have a roadside chat with US law enforcement while wearing harnesses. They did not come up in the conversation.

The concern with harnesses without a roll bar is the fact that you're being restrained upright. Should the roof collapse, your head would then attempt to become a structural element. A three-point will allow slumpage. It's probably more of an issue with open top cars than with those with some sort of roof.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I think I need to clarify, I seem to be coming off like an anti-safety prick. I’m really not. I’m not saying that we should have events like this here in North America. I’m not saying that everyone should have a full cage and harnesses in their street car. My point is more for people who have roll bars in Miata’s, or a rear bar in a project car like irish44J’s E30.

If it makes you feel any better, my car will have a full cage next year, and I'll still street drive it. Right now I still use the 3-point OEM belts on the street with my 4-point bar. WIth the full cage I'll likely start using my 6-points on the street and risk a ticket (will keep the 3-points in there for a quick "switcheroo" if pulled over, lol).

IDK what the fuss is about. When I'm driving my head is a hell of a lot closer to the frame above the driver's door than it is to my rollbar. And it's made of steel as well. For my head to hit my rollbar, I don't see how it could physically happen anyhow unless my head had already bounced off the roof my seat was broken in half. Any any force that causes that much destruction, the roll bar is the least of my worries in a 1985 car with no airbags or crumple zones to speak of :)

One difference is that I do have race seats in that car, so they are very wide at the top. I don't think I'd rock a rollbar on an old-school seat with small or absent headrests (like the Westfield pictured above, or many 60s cars)

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I've never understood why people get so bent out of shape about harnesses. When I was younger and dumber I drove on the street with harnesses. Go to any rally in this country and on the transits between stages both the driver and co driver have harnesses on. Has anyone ever got a ticket for harnesses on the street? Every se7en I've seen in this country has 4/5/6 point harnesses in it on the street as well

If they aren't DOT rated, then they aren't certified for street use in the US. I suspect that nobody but the most pedantic citation-stacking officer would care to note. Or an insurance company's investigators if there was an accident where injuries were involved.

It's similar to tires. Tires are legal in the US. Tyres, however, are not, since they don't have DOT markings. The only rally tires I've ever seen with DOT ratings were the ones I had on my Golf a few years back. I think they may have been Falkens. I'd never seen a tire rated "C" for temperature AND traction, and the treadwear was only 50, but they were road legal in the US, unlike Michelins or Silverstones or Hankooks or whathaveyou. (My Black Rockets have the E code but no DOT) The rally teams aren't swapping hoops before and after every transit, either.

NB: I know of exactly one person personally who was in a road accident in a caged car. Balled up his Camaro to the tune of $20k in damage. The only things undamaged were the doors. He didn't hit the cage, because his car had 5 point harnesses in it, not the 3-points that allow your upper torso to slide side to side. The police made no notice of the non-DOT belts but they did check his tires to made sure they were DOT legal and not off-road-only slicks. (The difference is absurd - tow rows of maybe 1/2mm by 10mm cuts every 50mm or so make the tires "treaded". Definitely not 17% rule slicks like stage rally)

kanaric wrote: It seems like in europe they have more car freedom than America. I can get almost anything I want to drive there legally now if I lived there and there are so many events where I can just go do a track day or race.

I disagree. Europeans get different freedoms from us. Not better. They get cars we can't, and it's easier to import cars from other parts of the world to Europe than to here. Modifying cars is harder and more expensive though. Some country's in Europe have very strict rules on modifying engines that make engine swaps hard. Also wild modifications that people do here just wont fly over there. Want a T bucket with a completely exposed engine and 2' wide rear tires and 4" wide fronts? Forget it. Want to drive a Monster truck on the street over there? Forget it. Want exposed wheels? Forget it. Want to put an Lincoln engine in the back of an Escort? Want to drop a Miata IRS in an MG? Want to build a tube frame front end? All these things are legal, but you'll have to go through a SVA (Single Vehicle Approval) which will cost you well over $1K to get compliance. Also you have very strict annual inspections on suspension, brakes, structure, lights, windows, emissions etc etc once a car is three years old. Whenever I suggest such things as that are a good idea over here I get people complaining about personal freedoms and overbearing government.

I'll take the system over here thanks. It's cheaper, easier and adds more variety.

I think people just have the grass is always greener attitude to Europe.

BTW, go and read just about any European forum and see how people rave about buying parts over here from Summit or the like. They can order them, get them shipped, pay import duty plus VAT and still get them FASTER AND CHEAPER than ordering the same stuff over there a lot of the time.

Knurled wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I've never understood why people get so bent out of shape about harnesses. When I was younger and dumber I drove on the street with harnesses. Go to any rally in this country and on the transits between stages both the driver and co driver have harnesses on. Has anyone ever got a ticket for harnesses on the street? Every se7en I've seen in this country has 4/5/6 point harnesses in it on the street as well

If they aren't DOT rated, then they aren't certified for street use in the US. I suspect that nobody but the most pedantic citation-stacking officer would care to note. Or an insurance company's investigators if there was an accident where injuries were involved. It's similar to tires. Tires are legal in the US. Tyres, however, are not, since they don't have DOT markings. The only rally tires I've ever seen with DOT ratings were the ones I had on my Golf a few years back. I think they may have been Falkens. I'd never seen a tire rated "C" for temperature AND traction, and the treadwear was only 50, but they were road legal in the US, unlike Michelins or Silverstones or Hankooks or whathaveyou. (My Black Rockets have the E code but no DOT) The rally teams aren't swapping hoops before and after every transit, either. NB: I know of exactly one person personally who was in a road accident in a caged car. Balled up his Camaro to the tune of $20k in damage. The only things undamaged were the doors. He didn't hit the cage, because his car had 5 point harnesses in it, not the 3-points that allow your upper torso to slide side to side. The police made no notice of the non-DOT belts but they did check his tires to made sure they were DOT legal and not off-road-only slicks. (The difference is absurd - tow rows of maybe 1/2mm by 10mm cuts every 50mm or so make the tires "treaded". Definitely not 17% rule slicks like stage rally)

I don't disagree with anything you've said actually, I agree, legal and likely to get in trouble are two different things.

Tires are something that pisses me off no end. At last the SCCA are moving to real street tires for Stock class. I just can't believe that we still have 'R' compound 'DOT' slicks legal at all. 20 years ago R comps were A008's and BFG R comps. They were more like today's ST tires. Hoosier and co have made a total mokery of R comps and people have got tickets in some states for running 'bald' tires that are marked 'DOT' If I were running any racing organization I would completley outlaw R comps and instigate some rules on trad wear, tread, number or grooves etc.

irish44j wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I think I need to clarify, I seem to be coming off like an anti-safety prick. I’m really not. I’m not saying that we should have events like this here in North America. I’m not saying that everyone should have a full cage and harnesses in their street car. My point is more for people who have roll bars in Miata’s, or a rear bar in a project car like irish44J’s E30.

If it makes you feel any better, my car will have a full cage next year, and I'll still street drive it. Right now I still use the 3-point OEM belts on the street with my 4-point bar. WIth the full cage I'll likely start using my 6-points on the street and risk a ticket (will keep the 3-points in there for a quick "switcheroo" if pulled over, lol). IDK what the fuss is about. When I'm driving my head is a hell of a lot closer to the frame above the driver's door than it is to my rollbar. And it's made of steel as well. For my head to hit my rollbar, I don't see how it could physically happen anyhow unless my head had already bounced off the roof my seat was broken in half. Any any force that causes that much destruction, the roll bar is the least of my worries in a 1985 car with no airbags or crumple zones to speak of :) One difference is that I do have race seats in that car, so they are very wide at the top. I don't think I'd rock a rollbar on an old-school seat with small or absent headrests (like the Westfield pictured above, or many 60s cars)

I heartily approve of your car, your plan and your attitude.

while i dont rally i never knew harnesses were illegal on the street. we had them in the sandrails that were clearly viewable buy any law enforcement. i had a 5 point in my capri. learn something new every day i guess!

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

irish44j wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I think I need to clarify, I seem to be coming off like an anti-safety prick. I’m really not. I’m not saying that we should have events like this here in North America. I’m not saying that everyone should have a full cage and harnesses in their street car. My point is more for people who have roll bars in Miata’s, or a rear bar in a project car like irish44J’s E30.

If it makes you feel any better, my car will have a full cage next year, and I'll still street drive it. Right now I still use the 3-point OEM belts on the street with my 4-point bar. WIth the full cage I'll likely start using my 6-points on the street and risk a ticket (will keep the 3-points in there for a quick "switcheroo" if pulled over, lol). IDK what the fuss is about. When I'm driving my head is a hell of a lot closer to the frame above the driver's door than it is to my rollbar. And it's made of steel as well. For my head to hit my rollbar, I don't see how it could physically happen anyhow unless my head had already bounced off the roof my seat was broken in half. Any any force that causes that much destruction, the roll bar is the least of my worries in a 1985 car with no airbags or crumple zones to speak of :) One difference is that I do have race seats in that car, so they are very wide at the top. I don't think I'd rock a rollbar on an old-school seat with small or absent headrests (like the Westfield pictured above, or many 60s cars)

I heartily approve of your car, your plan and your attitude.

I figure I could also have a bunch of live porcupines riding in the car as well, and maybe some poisonous snakes, and it would still be infinitely safer than driving anyplace in my Triumph GT6 :)

perhaps you all would be interested in my newly-developed 9-point harness, which is legal for both stage rally and DOT certified.

Because anything less is simply not safe

Hey, I did that once Headed straight from rallycross course to a fuel station and halfway out the parking lot, "E36 M3, I'm not wearing the 3-point", so I stuck that on over the 5-point.

Although, in my case, the rear harness bar is attached to the body with two M6 fasteners on each side, mounted with the bolts in tension relative to the loads the harness would put on it, so this actually would be the wise move. The harness is strictly to keep me from moving around in the car. If I crash hard enough while rallycrossing where the harness bar would break its mounting, I'd die of shame from how incredibly badly I've screwed things up for the club by doing something so dumb.

'Sides which, aforementioned Golf effectively only had a lap belt, and I stayed put in that car even better than the "breathing = optional" harness in the Mazda. Silly VW, thinking that all you need is a barely-tensioned shoulder belt, and a huge knee bolster on the dash. Adding the (manual) lap belt was the second best change I made to that car.

Road Rallying is huge in the UK. Like TSD's here but faster. It's limited to a max 40mph average speed, but if you've seen many British country roads you'll know that trying to maintain 40mph is just a fantasy. Please remember that helmets are BANNED in these events as they are on OPEN public roads.

We have those in Canada, but it's kept pretty quiet.

Zomby Woof wrote: We have those in Canada, but it's kept pretty quiet.

It's because you are a polite people.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote: We have those in Canada, but it's kept pretty quiet.

It's because you are a polite people.

it is only spoken of in French.

Zomby Woof wrote:

Road Rallying is huge in the UK. Like TSD's here but faster. It's limited to a max 40mph average speed, but if you've seen many British country roads you'll know that trying to maintain 40mph is just a fantasy. Please remember that helmets are BANNED in these events as they are on OPEN public roads.

We have those in Canada, but it's kept pretty quiet.

Do you now? How far into Canada must one venture to locate one of these? Say, from the Windsor area....

I once saw a car at a local autocross that had the shoulder belts of the harnesses attached to the back of the seat with duct tape. Nothing else, just duct tape. In that case, I think the harness could be considered unsafe.

I've had several street driven cars with roll bars and full cages. I've always driven them on the streets with the 5 or 6 point harnesses. I'll leave it open to debate but I feel this setup in my current car with Kirkeys that have full (padded) head halo and Schroth 6 points is safer than the car was stock. SFI padding is on upper cage tubes.

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Tom_Spangler wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote:

Road Rallying is huge in the UK. Like TSD's here but faster. It's limited to a max 40mph average speed, but if you've seen many British country roads you'll know that trying to maintain 40mph is just a fantasy. Please remember that helmets are BANNED in these events as they are on OPEN public roads.

We have those in Canada, but it's kept pretty quiet.

Do you now? How far into Canada must one venture to locate one of these? Say, from the Windsor area....

Oh now you're suddenly interested in rallying are you?

In reply to Tom_Spangler:
You're going to end up around Toronto, Tom. Maple Leaf Rally Club would be one place to start looking.I'm not sure if the clubs in the Kitchener/Waterloo area do any rallying. They would be closer. The London area clubs are racing and autocross focused.

Try looking here....
http://www.rallysport.on.ca/
The Kitchener-Waterloo Rally Club is the closest geographically to Michigan.