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BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/17 9:56 a.m.

Sorry, didn't describe that very well - the "corrosion" is on the piston skirts below the rings. No signs of it above the rings and in the combustion chamber.

Supposedly it was run on regular unleaded fuel, not leaded race fuel. Given that one isn't allowed to increase the compression ratio, running race fuel wouldn't make that much sense.

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
8/21/17 11:19 a.m.
BoxheadTim wrote: No belts at all, not even a generator/alternator . I think you're right, I should at least pull the jug with the damage and see if I can find out what caused it.

How do you cool it ?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/17 11:27 a.m.

In reply to iceracer:

Ducted air to the cylinders from intakes on each side of the car. Plus a third duct going to the oil cooler and air filter. It's got the usual tinware, just no fan forcing air past the cylinders.

And yes, prolonged idling is not advised.

Two_Tools_In_a_Tent
Two_Tools_In_a_Tent New Reader
8/21/17 12:32 p.m.

Without stating the obvious, fix the spark plug problem, put it back together as-is and run it until the end of the season. Unless you're a points leader and expect or need to win, just go out and get some track time, then pack it in until next year. Rebuild or replace the engine over the Winter and start fresh in the Spring. That engine is well worn out in a couple of places already and no doubt has more horrible secrets to reveal inside. With head problems, and barrel in that condition with no corresponding wear on the rings, it was probably originally "built" out of table scraps anyway. You might need anything from a turned crank to a line bore and all of the parts and procedures in between once you separate the case halves, save this for the Winter, slap it back together now and just enjoy the rest of the season. Seriously.

44Dwarf
44Dwarf UltraDork
8/21/17 9:10 p.m.

Next time leave the heads on, pick up a can of CHEAP shaving cream pull the plug roll the cyl to mid stroke check valves are not in way of plug hole or pop the push rods out. fill the cyl with shaving cream, retap hole for heli-coil or timesert. use shop vac to suck out metal shaving and shaving cream. spin motor over with plugs out to push out last bit of foam. install plug fire it up and have fun.

Two_Tools_In_a_Tent
Two_Tools_In_a_Tent New Reader
8/22/17 10:24 a.m.

THAT'S a really neat idea ! Rather than go with the cheap stuff, grab a can of Old Spice shaving cream, it'll bring back memories of your Dad.

crankwalk
crankwalk GRM+ Memberand Dork
8/22/17 3:29 p.m.
44Dwarf wrote: Next time leave the heads on, pick up a can of CHEAP shaving cream pull the plug roll the cyl to mid stroke check valves are not in way of plug hole or pop the push rods out. fill the cyl with shaving cream, retap hole for heli-coil or timesert. use shop vac to suck out metal shaving and shaving cream. spin motor over with plugs out to push out last bit of foam. install plug fire it up and have fun.

Barbasol comes to mind. I can smell it now.

Cool tip.

Pete Gossett
Pete Gossett GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/22/17 7:23 p.m.
crankwalk wrote:
44Dwarf wrote: Next time leave the heads on, pick up a can of CHEAP shaving cream pull the plug roll the cyl to mid stroke check valves are not in way of plug hole or pop the push rods out. fill the cyl with shaving cream, retap hole for heli-coil or timesert. use shop vac to suck out metal shaving and shaving cream. spin motor over with plugs out to push out last bit of foam. install plug fire it up and have fun.
Barbasol comes to mind. I can smell it now. Cool tip.

I did this on an old Suzuki Sidekick, it worked perfect.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/23/17 11:33 p.m.

Most of the VW forums seem to advise against Helicoil and suggest solid inserts, which require removing the head.

I'm kinda glad I did pull the heads, because that allowed me to find issues like intake and exhaust gaskets that weren't sealing too well, so I'm changing those at the same time.

I think I'll address the spark plug issues and the other obvious issues (like all the pushrods tubes being damaged on way or another), slap it back together and hope it'll last for three race days.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/5/17 11:04 p.m.

Well, the season is over and thanks to my achilles tendon injury, my motivation to fix the engine was close to zero, but I'm planning to get everything back together for the free test day at Thunderhill. So I am changing out the barrels and pistons and am going to do a top end refresh while I'm at it.

But first, I have to figure out how to get the motor out of the chassis, preferable without having to pull the transmission at the same time - there's a nice sturdy crossmember going right across the top of the transmission, so if I have to pull that, I need two engine cranes...

Woody
Woody GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/17 6:06 a.m.

I may have missed it, but can we see some photos of this car? I love Formula cars.

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/17 10:10 a.m.

In reply to Woody :

There were a couple in my "documenting my motorsports journey" thread, but I haven't updated that for months thanks to, well, a lack of motorsports.

Doesn't mean I can't repost them .

Currently it's more of a pile of parts in the garage so not very attractive to look at.

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/6/17 10:29 a.m.

Oh, and word from some people who know over on ApexSpeed is yes, there is just enough clearance to pull the engine out without having to remove the transmission. Phew.

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/3/17 7:07 p.m.

And here's proof that there is enough clearance after removing the dry sump tank, its mounting plate and some other small parts:

FST engine on engine hoist

I'm glad that I did get the 2 ton engine crane for the extra reach as it was pretty much the perfect length with the boom fully extended.

Putting it on to the engine stand was easy once I managed to attach it to the mount:

And it's on the stand.

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/3/17 7:47 p.m.

I also found this interest way of mounting the starter motor. I'm not sure that it's supposed to be mounted like this...

 

Yes, it's the two bolts circled in red that are holding the starter motor in by virtue of the clamping force exerted by the washers.

Pete Gossett
Pete Gossett GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/3/17 7:51 p.m.

In reply to BoxheadCougarTim :

And apparently the torque of the starter?

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/3/17 7:53 p.m.

In reply to Pete Gossett :

Possibly - I didn't check which direction it turns. There still seems to be a little too much hoping and praying holding the starter motor in.

Pete Gossett
Pete Gossett GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/3/17 7:53 p.m.

In reply to BoxheadCougarTim :

No doubt, he could have at least safety wired them. 

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/3/17 7:57 p.m.

In reply to Pete Gossett :

I may have discovered why this car was (allegedly) so fast.

With the number of loosely attached parts, it probably lost a few pounds during the race ).

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/4/17 4:40 p.m.

Turns out the starter is attached the correct way (clamped in with washers) as there is no other way to mount a VW starter without it hitting one of the frame rails.

noddaz
noddaz GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/4/17 6:54 p.m.

Looks like you need thicker washers...

TasdevEngineer2of3
TasdevEngineer2of3 New Reader
12/4/17 9:11 p.m.

What used to be common in my fv days was to tig weld the sparkplug hole to get some new metal in it and then drill and tap. Seemed to work well. Helicoils were iffy. I had a few pull out and gave up on them. Same for the solid inserts - had one fail but I suspect the "professional" I bought the engine from did a crappy install job. Of course race ready fv heads were $1000 or so - thus the desire to fix the sparkplug hole. Perhaps fst heads are a tad bit cheaper. 

As to the scratches in the jugs - saw that on the 1200. I used leak down (not compression) as my yardstick on when it was time to pull off the heads to have a look. Used to stick hone (with plenty of oil) the jugs in a drill press to take the edge off those scratches. Worked well to improve that leak down along with some grinding compound to brighten up the valve sealing.

Hope you enjoy fst - it was just starting up as I "retired" from fv. Got to provide some input on the fst class rules and agreed with most everything that happened except continuing to use slicks. Tires were the greatest cost and could have drastically changed that with DOTs. But that was a long, long time ago in a place far, far away.

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/19/18 3:04 p.m.

This seems to be the motor that keeps on giving...

I finally figure out why one of the rocker shafts was so hard to remove - turns out that the rocker arms were shimmed wrong to the extent that you could barely move one rocker arm with the shaft bolted into the head because one of the mounting blocks was putting way too much side pressure on the rocker. I guess I'll find out what that did to the rest of the motor later on...

Anyway, two more questions:

  • While I had the rocker shafts apart and off the engine, I replaced the valve lash adjusters with Empi swivel foot ones (the "ball" ones). These come with shims to adjust the rocker geometry as they're longer than the stock ones, but even with the shims in place and the adjusters backed off all the way, the still exert is still pressure on the valve. Am I just being naive thinking that EMPI supplied the correct thickness shim and I just need to shim out the rocker shaft more? Of course the easy button is just to go back to the stock adjusters, they just wear faster at high RPMs.
    Oh, and I just checked the EMPI catalog and they're stating that the included shims are the correct ones to adjust the rocker arm geometry.
  • The two mounting blocks for the rocker shaft have a cut in them (that's stock so they can clamp the shaft) - when I took the rocker shafts off, they were installed with the cut facing up towards the valves. My clever VW books state they the blocks are supposed to be mounted with the cut facing away from the valves. Is mounting them upside down some clever VW race motor builder trick, or are were they just installed upside down by the person who also shimmed the rocker arms to perfection?
oldopelguy
oldopelguy UltraDork
2/19/18 3:16 p.m.

There was a couple of applications that used completely different starters that might index properly. The automatic transmission was one, it had its own support shroud and didn't have to use a bushing in the transmission. I think one of the later busses even had a little gear reduction one.  Beyond all that, Kennedy sells a tiny high torque one for swaps that will also work for stock engines.

TasdevEngineer2of3
TasdevEngineer2of3 New Reader
2/19/18 3:48 p.m.

If I remember right the bevels on the rocker arm clamps were install opposite of whatever they were stock. Its been so long I don't remember why.

As to the fv rocker arms, there was a reason that oem arms and adjusters were used. Besides oem being required by the rules, if you ground the tips flat and had the right pushrod/rocker arm geometry, it gave you a small tad more lift.  Just one of those reasons that fv engines were so pricey considering their output. So you might want to do some thinking whether to use the swivel foots or oems considering geometry.

Another thought - do formula first rules still require the restrictor plate? If so, that is another variable to consider. Do any of the usual tricks hop up tricks improve horsepower/torque given the plate? Some won't. And some of the typical maintenance/replacement items impact may be blunted as well.

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