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GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/7/17 8:42 a.m.
ProDarwin said:

There was speculation that there was a death 3 years ago from a stuck throttle.  I'm not sure if they ever figured it out for sure, but I know SCCA issued a karting safety email about throttle & linkage right after the incident.

A girl did die in a kart after clotheslining herself on a chain in a parking lot a few years ago, in what seemed to be a case of stuck throttle:

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/14-Year-Old-Honor-Student-Dies-In-Go-Kart-Wreck-267866301.html

There was a thread on it:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/anyone-know-the-back-story-on-this/88972/page1/

Duke
Duke MegaDork
11/7/17 9:42 a.m.
Patrick said:

One of the local autocross clubs runs a small lot with light poles within 10' of the course, and the asphalt has water coming up through in spots on dry days.  I turned into the slalom one gate early and was staring at a pole.  Bailed on that run right quick. 

I've been autocrossing about 11 years, and have been chair of our local club's program for 5.  We've not usually had access to great lots - when I started, they were running at an elementary school bus lot that was 130' wide by 300' long, fully surrounded by curbs.  Later, after I took over, I got us a high school lot that was maybe 500' by 500', but with a lot of light poles and minimal runoff room.

I have seen incidents at SCCA events and at our club's, both before and after I became responsible for them.  At our elementary school lot, a young driver got his feet crossed up and hit a curb pretty hard, doing front suspension damage.  At another event, a more experienced Miata driver spun and backed it up on the curb.  What made that one scary was that a corner worker was sitting on the curb and had to scramble (successfully) out of the way.  Both those were when I was just a participant.

The other 2 incidents were from when I was autocross chair and primary course designer, and they were both from the same event a few years ago.  I consider them course design incidents, with driver error as a contributing factor.  It was a busy event, with not one but two visiting clubs (maybe 15%-20% more cars than usual), and a lot of novices or less-experienced drivers.  This was at the high school lot, and I was trying to squeeze as much course as I could onto the paving.  The finish was down the last double row of parking, between a string of light poles and the grass (no curb).  I had a tight 120d left into the final chute, and as much wiggle as I could manage in the run to the end gate.  There was plenty of shutdown room after the finish, but unfortunately the wiggle was enough to unsettle the car without being enough to make people slow down.

In the morning session, an older, more experienced 911 driver spun after the wiggle, and made light contact with the fence.  I got on the PA and asked people to be careful at that spot, but there wasn't much I could change without redesigning the end in the middle of the runs, and there physically wasn't much else that could be done anyway. 

Unfortunately, in the afternoon session, a young 350Z/370Z driver spun in the same place.  He was way overcommitted, and not as experienced a driver to boot.  He went through the fence backwards, across about 50 feet of grass / down a small bank, and onto the 2-lane public road adjacent to the site.  Fortunately, the only civilian car on the road had plenty of time to stop safely, or it could have been much worse.

As course designer (and, by default, safety steward), I always lay the course out ahead of time, to scale, using aerial photography.  In fact I even made a kit of SketchUp elements to help.  That lets me know the distances accurately, and think through as many potential problems as I can imagine.  But I underestimated the speed people would be able to make in that spot.

I never have the course pass within 25' of a hard object like a curb or light pole, and if the path actually points at the object, I make sure it turns off at least 75' away.  I set up corner complexes so that light poles and safety stations are inside the curve but before the apex, so any spins will carry the car past the hazard.  I try to make sure you can always see the next element to avoid leaving drivers completely at sea in the middle of the lot.  I try to limit speeds.  It's less exciting to drive, but I try to avoid balls-to-the-wall finish sequences, and I leave tons of shutdown lane, with a long chute (150' minimum) that tapers from a fairly wide, forgiving end gate down to a narrow exit point that usually involves a sharp turn to get out.

We don't have a novice class or program, but at the drivers' meeting, I always emphasize the point of driving within your ability and not trying to save a lost run.  We also have one of the field designers or experienced drivers give a guided novice course walk before the meeting.  At the meeting, I ask all the novices and instructors identify themselves, so we can pair them up by run group.  I go out of my way to say that it's no shame to have an instructor along, and that even experienced drivers take one sometimes.  It's not strictly a requirement, but we strongly encourage first-timers to take an instructor on all their morning heat runs at least, until we can get an idea of how they behave.  And if we find a novice Roger Ramjet or Mr. Magoo, we do make an instructor mandatory until they can negotiate the course more appropriately.

We also highlight the responsibility of course workers for keeping the event safe for themselves and drivers.  We encourage appropriate red flagging, and we warn drivers to be situationally aware and not target-fixated.  E36 M3 is gonna happen... but planning for it and encouraging a culture of safety can go a long way towards mitigating it when it does.

Greg Smith
Greg Smith HalfDork
11/7/17 9:45 a.m.
mad_machine said:

I always thought that grass was an odd material to have beyond the verges on a track. It has a LOT less friction (especially if the least bit damp), and does little to slow or stop a car unless the dirt is very soft.  IMHO I thought gravel or even sand would be better.

I guess the issue is that both gravel & send turn back to "grass" or at least weedy greed stuff without ongoing time and money. Mowing the green stuff is likely the cheapest answer, not the technically best one. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/7/17 10:19 a.m.
Greg Smith said:
mad_machine said:

I always thought that grass was an odd material to have beyond the verges on a track. It has a LOT less friction (especially if the least bit damp), and does little to slow or stop a car unless the dirt is very soft.  IMHO I thought gravel or even sand would be better.

I guess the issue is that both gravel & send turn back to "grass" or at least weedy greed stuff without ongoing time and money. Mowing the green stuff is likely the cheapest answer, not the technically best one. 

Gravel and sand also have a nasty tendency to catch the tire sidewalls of any car sliding sideways on them and flip the car. Cars easily get stuck in sand which means more yellow flags and tow truck usage. Paved runoff areas are the safest and most convenient from a racing standpoint, the main reason it wasn't done in the past is cost - grass costs nothing to build and is the cheapest to maintain. Paved runoff areas are the most expensive and environmentally unfriendly option though, so they have that going against them.

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
11/7/17 11:08 a.m.

As someone who's never been closer to an autocross than Youtube I'm finding this discussion interesting and educational.  I'm a road racer, and instructor at HPDEs and other performance driving events and I think of autocross as an alternative to time attack and HPDEs where the risk of damage and injury is minimal. 

From that perspective I've always laid a significant amount of blame for accidents that resulted in vehicle damage at autocross events on the course designer and whoever was running the event. 

I also think of autocross events as having a relatively large number of inexperienced drivers.  Not because I think that autocross drivers in general are unskilled but because I think of the events as being more accessible and less expensive than track days or HPDEs.  If that's in fact the case that would seem to make it even more important to have a course layout with little to run into and lots of runoff area.  If you're going to have higher speeds and closer obstacles then perhaps the event should be limited to more experienced drivers.

Just to be clear this isn't intended to be a criticism it's just some ramblings from an admitted outsider that might help with the discussion.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin PowerDork
11/7/17 11:11 a.m.
Ian F said:

Arm-chair interweb analysis?  Seriously? Major incidents are investigated by professionals. Even videos of an incident can't tell the whole story.  Posting a few random pictures would serve no purpose other than to satisfy morbid curiosity.

Let me clarify.  I'm not saying people should rush home and post all the pictures they took of the autocross wreck on facebook.  I am saying that club organizers, course designers, etc. shouldn't live in fear of an accident 'getting out'.   They should want to discuss with other experienced members of the autocross community what went wrong and how to improve it.

Additionally, the rest of the community could benefit from being able to see this discussions.  Being aware of something that was a factor in recent incidents can raise awareness of many autocrossers so they know when to speak up when they see something with the potential to lead to an accident.  I've been to many regions myself where I've seen something like this.  Sometimes I say something, sometimes I don't.  I think a 'if you see something, say something' policy should be the norm and being open about incidents in the aftermath can help support this.

Major incidents are investigated by professionals, yes.  At SCCA events.  In non-SCCA local regions many incidents (or even safety in general) are barely given a second thought.  And there are a LOT of non-SCCA regions.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
11/7/17 11:37 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I don't disagree, but I still don't believe pictures posted in public is a good idea.  A closed, "need to know" group would be more appropriate.  A forum where course designers and safety stewards could share lessons learned and analyze incidents away from peanut gallery commenting.

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/7/17 11:48 a.m.

It's a moot point. I don't think the pictures need to be posted so I didn't take any. 

The organizers in our region and theirs have been discussing it. There may be some changes in the future, but this is looking to be a fairly straight forward case of driver error. He had already navigated the course safely 5 times and for some reason blew it on his final run. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
11/7/17 11:53 a.m.
APEowner said:

From that perspective I've always laid a significant amount of blame for accidents that resulted in vehicle damage at autocross events on the course designer and whoever was running the event.

Ultimately it's always the driver's fault unless something breaks... BUT,  it's the course designer / safety steward's responsibility to consider what mistakes are likely and what will happen when they do, then allow space / time for them.

drdisque
drdisque HalfDork
11/7/17 12:13 p.m.

In my region of record there's a row of "portable" concrete construction barriers/lane dividers at one end of the site. This is the "narrow" end of a long and narrow site that is even narrower at this particular end, so to use this part of the site you basically have to come in and do a turnaround (the turnaround can be fairly wide since the pavement is still about 150' wide down there). Some courses come into this section way too hot or end in a maneuver that can upset the car and send it towards these concrete barriers. In my limited time in the region, two cars have hit them.

1 was a novice with a WRX or STI of some sort. He got sideways in an element that got him crossed up, he either tried to power out of it and then when the car hooked it hooked him straight into the barriers or it was simply a case of being lost on course during a high speed portion and target fixation. Anyway, the nose of the car hit the barrier flush and shot up into the air, knocked over the barrier, and ended up on all four wheels on the other side. I saw the car come back on the flatbed and it took a nasty hit in the front and was a case where an insurance company would have totaled it but it probably was repairable with a completely new front clip. The car held up amazingly well considering the violence of the impact.

The second was a driver with 4-5 years of experience in a Mustang who had switched to an FRS and had been driving it for about a year. I don't know the circumstances of the accident because I was racing with a different region that day, but it likely totaled the car because we never saw him or the car again.

Since then the region has mostly done a better job of course designs that limit your ability to carry speed into that area and also the identification of novices and guiding them through that area.

Keep in mind that these barriers are at least 50' off the line for every course I've seen, yet two people in two years managed to hit them.

Also during the event that the WRX hit the barrier, the drive pins or lugs sheared off one of the the rear wheels of a B-Mod and the wheel went zooming through a hot course at 30+ mph on its own, luckily hitting nothing but a guardrail at the other end of the course after bouncing 500 feet through the middle of the course.

fidelity101
fidelity101 UltraDork
11/7/17 1:22 p.m.
Ian F said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I don't disagree, but I still don't believe pictures posted in public is a good idea.  A closed, "need to know" group would be more appropriate.  A forum where course designers and safety stewards could share lessons learned and analyze incidents away from insurance adjusters

fixed that for ya...

 

 

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/7/17 1:22 p.m.

Here's some more info. Possibly a slower finish would have helped, but honestly, I'm not sure. I think this was a case of tunnel vision. The crash was at the edge of the woods where marked below. From the finish line to the timing slip station was about 500'. From timing slips to the crash site was another 300+- feet. That's 700 feet off the course. I don't think that is a course problem. 

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
11/7/17 5:24 p.m.

Finish should not be on a curve,  aka corner.

GCrites80s
GCrites80s New Reader
11/7/17 8:07 p.m.
codrus said:

The only crash I'm aware of at the autox events I used to attend was due to the course crossing over itself, and a starter who waved the green flag too soon.  There were a couple of injuries out on course, attributable to people staring at their phones instead of watching the cars on course.

I remember that I took a few years off from autocross in order to start my business. My last event before the break was in 2009. When I started back in 2013, the night before I had a dream that everybody would be looking at their phones now instead of paying attention to the course. Fortunately that wasn't the case the next day at the event. 

Toebra
Toebra HalfDork
11/7/17 9:19 p.m.

Bad things can happen when racing.  I know a VERY experienced and skilled driver who put a Cortina shiny side down in a parking lot autocross.  It happens.

 

I have a Mazdaspeed Miata.  I get into third on pretty much every autocross course.

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
11/8/17 10:43 a.m.

Showing photos of crashed cars will not accomplish anything except to scare people away.

wlkelley3
wlkelley3 UltraDork
11/8/17 11:36 a.m.

In reply to Toebra :

Not uncommon with 6-speed Miata's. Most people I know that have 6-speed Miata's hit 3rd in a lot of autocross courses. Not a regular occurrence with 5-speed though. It's a fast course for a 5-speed Miata to hit 3rd. Or 5th like I inadvertently do sometimes. surprise Not as fast as staying in 2nd.

car39
car39 HalfDork
11/8/17 4:31 p.m.

I've seen two. 

A former national champion confused brake and gas and exited the course at full speed.  It was a small lot, and a tree was all that kept the car from joining the people in the swimming pool.  Minor injuries, smashed car major paperwork, and the lot was lost the next year.

Second item was also pedal related.  A bored, stroked, turbo's Miata was equipped with an addition to the gas pedal to help with rev matching.  It also helped to keep the motor screaming and the brakes from being fully applied.  The vehicle hit the curb, flew up, almost decapitated the drive on a tree limb and flew a distance before touchdown.  The irony on this accident is it was before cell phone data collection, but the driver had accelerometers, video equipment and a recording tachometer.  He was able to review his flight in Miata Air over and over again.  The car was twisted, but repairable, but the worst damage was when his wife found out about the $7000 engine in his formerly cheap car.

djsilver
djsilver Reader
11/8/17 5:40 p.m.
car39 said:

I've seen two. 

A former national champion confused brake and gas and exited the course at full speed.  It was a small lot, and a tree was all that kept the car from joining the people in the swimming pool.  Minor injuries, smashed car major paperwork, and the lot was lost the next year.

Second item was also pedal related.  A bored, stroked, turbo's Miata was equipped with an addition to the gas pedal to help with rev matching.  It also helped to keep the motor screaming and the brakes from being fully applied.  The vehicle hit the curb, flew up, almost decapitated the drive on a tree limb and flew a distance before touchdown.  The irony on this accident is it was before cell phone data collection, but the driver had accelerometers, video equipment and a recording tachometer.  He was able to review his flight in Miata Air over and over again.  The car was twisted, but repairable, but the worst damage was when his wife found out about the $7000 engine in his formerly cheap car.

Hope it wasn't as eventful as the wife that used her sleeping husband's thumb to unlock his phone on a flight, only to find out he had a girlfriend.  It got so out-of-hand on the plane that they had to land the plane and let them off.  It made the international new circuit this week.  The news didn't use their names but it's just a matter of time...,

snailmont5oh
snailmont5oh HalfDork
11/8/17 7:01 p.m.

I usually like to see courses with something fairly diabolical just before the finish, with the finish *right at* the last element. That prevents the "drag race to the finish". Of course, I don't see it that often, but I like it when I see it. 

Also, I watched my car back through the finish once, after a 90 left/90 right element in which the driver overestimated his ability to catch my car. It was only going about 20 at the time, so no harm, no foul. 

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