Can one be happy with a dual-clutch?

So, DSGs, PDKs, F1s, and other such transmissions exist for those who enjoy their kupplungs doppel and their paddles flappy.

I enjoy a manual.

It's not particularly likely that I'll own or have space for several cars any time soon. The missus doesn't drive a manual, so we occasionally have to deal with complications because we can't swap cars. I haven't liked any of the traditional manumatic-capable boxes I've tried, but I hear these "automated manuals" are actually good. I tend to find myself lost or out of sync when trying to shift an auto box in manual mode. I keep having to check the display to see my current ratio. My references are a then-new Protege5 test drive, some recent Hyundai Elantra rental, some Dodge Dart rental and a Jeep Patriot.

Is the dual-clutch a different animal?

I think the GRM collective groks the appreciation of a manual more than most. Are these dual-clutch clever electronic manual boxes as fun on the street as the good old three-pedal manual?

I test drove a TDi DSG last year and loved it. Merging onto the highway became a Walter Mitty esque fantasy of blasting down the Mulsanne in an Audi R18 or something.

Not sure how that would translate long-term though.

So there's (at least) four different types of transmission with flappy paddles on it -- a traditional torque converter automatic (tiptronic is this), a CVT (low end Audi and VWs have this with flappy paddles to select the ratio), a traditional manual with a single clutch that's all driven by solenoids (Ferrari "F1" and the early BMW SMGs), or the dual-clutch, dual-input-shaft transmissions that are becoming widespread now (DSG, PDK, s-tronic, etc).

Personally, I hate the disconnected feeling you get with a torque converter, so tiptronics are of no interest to me. CVTs tend to be more about efficiency than fun, I've never driven one that didn't suck.

That leaves the single and dual clutch flappy paddle gearboxes. From a "fun" perspective, I think these are roughly equivalent to each other, the differences is that the single clutch ones are great on the racetrack, but tend to be very harsh and jerky around town. For whatever reason, programming them to do both seems to be hard. The dual-clutch flappy paddle ones, OTOH, are apparently easier to set up to do both, which is why they're taking over. (Except in F1, where they're banned by the rules).

I recently replaced my manual-transmission B6 S4 with an s-tronic, dual-clutch, flappy paddle C7 S6. I've had it about 3 months now, and I'm still somewhat torn about it. I like the speed at which it shifts and I like the rev-match downshifts it does when you pull the left paddle, but the problem is the control software. It's got 3 modes you can operate it in: "D" (which is fine for driving in traffic, but is slower to downshift than I'd like), "S" (which downshifts faster, but also doesn't upshift when you get to a cruising speed), and "M" (manual). In theory "M" should fix everything, but the problem is that it still automatically upshifts if you hit the rev limiter. This means that if you're trying to do a manual acceleration run and let it go too high it will shift to 2nd, and then when your shift command comes in 10 milliseconds later it shifts to 3rd and it's now in the wrong gear. This is a software problem not a mechanical one, and the control software varies a lot by manufacturer, so you'll have to try out whichever car you're thinking of specifically.

So is it as much fun as a manual? For certain types of driving, no, it's not. You don't get the satisfaction of doing heel-and-toe rev-matched downshifts yourself, and it's certainly less engaging than a 3-pedal car. I wouldn't want my Miata with a flappy-paddle gearbox. OTOH, it's a lot more fun (well, perhaps "less unfun") in heavy traffic than a clutch pedal is. It makes cool noises, it shifts fast, and it's almost certainly a faster way around a racetrack (not that I'll ever take the S6 to the track, that's what the Miata is for)

If the S6 had been available in a manual and I'd chosen to buy the s-tronic, I think I'd be regretting that choice. It's not though, the car (and all of the other cars in its class) is simply not available with a manual, so it wasn't a choice between a manual and an s-tronic, it was between an S6 and a totally different car. To me, overall, the s-tronic diminishes the appeal of the car, but not enough that I wish I'd bought something else.

MCarp22 wrote: I test drove a TDi DSG last year and loved it. Merging onto the highway became a Walter Mitty esque fantasy of blasting down the Mulsanne in an Audi R18 or something. Not sure how that would translate long-term though.

My daily driver is a TDI DSG and it's just OK. I prefer a real manual.

is she afraid of a manual ? or just refuses to learn ?

my suggestion (assuming neither of the above) is have her learn … once learned it never goes away

The VW DSG was pretty awesome in the GTI I test drove, although I certainly didn't find the process of paddle-shifting to be intuitive at all - especially in a car that's quick enough to require snapping through the gears in short succession. I expect it's a skill that can, and needs to be, learned and refined just like a true manual. However, it drove so well in automatic mode that I'm not sure how often I'd really use the paddles?

I'm also not a fan of the more frequent and expensive service they require - that to me is their biggest shortcoming at this point. If VW could get the ~$500 service interval out to 100k, with no loss of longevity or performance, I'd give the DSG much more serious consideration.

Here's my rule of thumb, under 400hp, get a proper 3 pedal manual. Over 400hp, get flappy paddles.

IMHO, the key problem with DSG's are very slow drives and drive away from rest. That's when the clutch slippage is in action. Customers who buy automatics expect some kind of crawl feature, and we all know that's terrible on clutches.

And then to calibrate that with a tip in is really hard.

Shifts can be controlled any way one wants- fast, slow, crisp, sluggish- we see that anything can happen with two gears engaged at the same time.

Anyway- if the intention is NOT to replace a real automatic, I think they can be great. If it's the traditional idle, with crawl feature- it's going to be problematic. As I see it.

(a side but related opinion- seems as if the real slow driving nature of reality is really hard to calibrate- as it's constantly missed in cars I drive. It's where you see the real elegance of driving)

I don't want flappy paddles. I'm pretty sure no matter how great they are, I'd mostly just put it whatever automatic mode and just let it act like an expensive automatic without a torque converter.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/ill-go-out-on-a-limb-and-say-that-this-is-the-best/82401/page1/

Woody wrote:

Woody wrote: I'm beginning to reevaluate my position on automatic transmissions. At least this one...

Two days later: Clutch pedals are stupid.

I actually love dual clutches and hate start clutches. A torque converter is a beautiful thing, as long as it has a lockup clutch inside it. I feel like a dual clutch with a torque converter that locks up once it reaches 'coupling' speed is the best overall way forward. Torque converters also really improve the behaviour of CVTs. Honda just went to a torque converter with its cvt for the ILX et al while, for example, Ford trundles along with its complaint-generating start-clutch DCT.

I also really like CVTs in the form of Toyota's hybrids and others who have copied that system or done something similar, where instead of using a planetary gearset with one input, one held member, and one output, it uses two inputs run at varying speeds to give you an infinitely variable ratio (within a range) and does electric torque-fill during the times the engine is making major speed changes to accomodate acceleration. It's an amazing device, although not particularly engaging unless you're intellectually sympathetic to the magic it's working.

Flappy paddle driver by necessity (due to injury, can't effectively clutch). Learned and grew up on manuals, and do miss them from time to time. I own a '06 VW GTI with DSG and it is quite good, actually. It is as engaging as a manual? No. However, it is most certainly not a slush-box auto with that floaty disconnected feel. Launch control works really well, and after nearly 10 years of ownership, I've not had a single problem with the DSG. I've tracked it, autox'ed it and hillclimbed it.

Then Santa brought be a '12 Cayman R with PDK and it is nothing short of amazing. The Cayman is strictly a track toy so it rarely see's normal street usage, but on the occasion when I drive it to work, PDK handles normal city driving quite well. On the track is where PDK really shines. Crisp up- and down-shifts, perfect rev matching, you have more ability to focus on your braking, line and turn in. You might say that driving the PDK on normal roads is boring (and it is), but then the Cayman R on the streets is pretty boring regardless of gearbox -- it is simply too fast with too high limits to be fun except on deserted roads or tracks and in those cases, PDK really shines.

Cheers, DJM

In reply to Mike: The vehicles you've driven with flappy paddles are regular cars, they will be tuned to shift comfortably. I also need to drive a dual clutch trans vehicle.

Dual clutches can be fun, just a different kind of fun. While ultimately not 'as fun' as a manual, in my personal opinion, they are more versatile. Which for many enthusiasts, can still make up the difference.

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alfadriver wrote: Customers who buy automatics expect some kind of crawl feature, and we all know that's terrible on dry clutches.

FTFY...But the only transmissions that are relevant to this discussion use wet dual clutches.

In reply to Driven5:

If wet clutches were the only ones in existence, you would be right. But there are a lot of dry clutch systems out there....

I love flappy paddles. I loved the '09 M3 I drove with the DCT.

I like manuals, but for an everyday car that you may take to the occasional HPDE, I think it's the way to go.

I didn't experience the nasty starts some of you are talking about

I think it depends on the car and transmission or system it uses. I currently have a Miata manual, 12 Impreza CVT and 15 WRX manual and have had 09 Civic Si manual, 02 and 05 WRX manuals and a couple Neons manuals. Each has it's pros and cons but the electronic throttle manuals and manuals that are cable shift instead of direct shift are not as good as cable throttle and direct shift manuals. That said they still offer the control automated manuals still lack except for maybe the PDK I can't afford. The VW/Audi DSG is pretty darn good for regular and spirited use even if it has some minor issues at low speed/take off and holding a gear on the limiter.

My wife learned on a manual but hasn't driven one in years by her choice. She doesn't want to have one so in keeping the Miata for my Exocet build and needing a truck for home improvement and towing we will likely end up with a truck for utility, Exocet for fun and a Audi A3/S3 or A4/S4 for daily driving for both of us.

Finding the right balance between needs and wants for you and a spouse or for street/autocross/track etc... is always a challenge.

I do hope that people get over the need for a 'crawl' feature, but it wouldn't matter anymore with a torque converter. You'd also be able to do brake-torque, or use launch control without cutting a 4 digit number off the number of miles your trans will go before needing work.

I really want to see a torque converter that uses magnetorheological fluid. That would be awesome.

In reply to alfadriver:

How many dry dual clutches are out there is totally irrelevant, if the only ones available aren't worth a damn from an enthusiast point of view...Which has been my rxperience so far. Dry dual clutches are typically used on the least sporty and lowest powered models...And while there might be some out there by now, off hand I'm not even aware of any that actually include include driver engaging flappy paddles either. That's not too say this will all hold true indefinitely, but for now it seems to be the case.

Thanks for all of the replies. It sounds like many didn't have a learning curve.

I'm going to try to get a test drive of a couple of cars in this week. My plan is to try to get in a Merc GLA45 and a GTI. One of the VW dealerships has both on the lot.

I would not call a dual clutch transmission an "automatic transmission" by any means, and I do not think it should be lumped together with that group. It isn't a true manual transmission, sure, but it IS a pretty badass piece of technology.

Its got all the advantages of a manual gearbox (minus the driver-car level of interaction) except its quicker in every way. A proper dual clutch transmission is essentially two separate 3 speed transmissions (in a 6 speed anyways), hence there is a clutch for each transmission.

Rev it out in first gear and the computer is already readying the second transmission's second gear for the shift. You click the paddle, and the second transmission instantly takes over, and the first transmission begins to ready 3rd gear. So you see, design for design, not even the quickest gear slamming drag racer bro in the history of the world can shift as fast as a proper dual clutch.

The only thing I would be weary of is repair costs. Just know that, just because a car has paddles, does NOT mean it has a proper dual clutch transmission. In fact most of the cars out there with paddles are not true dual clutch transmissions.

Vigo wrote: I feel like a dual clutch with a torque converter that locks up once it reaches 'coupling' speed is the best overall way forward.

I believe that's what Honda put in the current TLX. It's supposed to be pretty darn good, from the reviews.

Yeah, it's relatively new.

I would not call a dual clutch transmission an "automatic transmission" by any means, and I do not think it should be lumped together with that group.

Used to be that all auto transmissions more or less worked the same (2 or 3 planetary gearsets with a variety of holding elements attached to their segments), but now there are relatively many ways to get a transmission that shifts 'automatically'. I think we should just broaden our definition of what constitutes an automatic transmission, rather than take the odd step of going out of our way not to call transmissions that shift automatically... automatic transmissions..

Haha fair enough. I guess what I really meant is I dont think the dual clutch deserves near the negative connotation that the words "automatic transmission" bring.

Even traditional automatics shift pretty quickly these days. IMHO, it's really the disconnection mechanism that makes the difference in how they drive -- torque converter vs single clutch vs dual clutch, vs CVT.