I was reading about your trash talking and I came to the sudden understanding of just how little I know about drag racing.
Nitrous once installed, its hold the button down once the tires stop spinning and release at the end of the 1/4 mile? Assuming the fuel is correct for the gas? How much of a shot will cast pistons take? 50hp? 150? 300?
How much will a semi decent set of tires take before they go up in smoke. Not drag racing slicks because I've got one set of wire wheels and I'm not sure how much abuse they'll take. but maybe 200TW semi sticky radials? Please speak in drag racing language? 12 sec 89 mph?
I will retain the IRS swing axles but I'm sure I can make them stiff enough and get the geometry correct to hold alignment. But doing so probably won't give me great hook up. How much will that hurt?
Roughly speaking the MGuar will have all the aerodynamics of a Model T Ford. ( only a little smaller). Between 1650 &1880 pounds Somewhere around 400 horsepower a Turbo 400 with a shift kit. 3:54 positraction 8 inch wide rims.
B
I'm not a drag racing expert at all but I'll give you my experiences as a newbie at it.
1st Challenge car was a 1994 Miata stock engine on SM7 tires. In the drags I could redline it and drop the clutch and it hooked. That's because I had no power. I think it ran a 17.2 iirc.
2nd Challenge car was an 2002 Infinity Q45 automatic trans. First year we ran some autocross tires in the drags. It spun first gear no matter what. But we also had changed the rear end to a ratio that ended up being like 14:1 overall ratio. Second year we ran some cheap used drag tires and with control you could get traction in first gear but still hard to control. Third year we ran some better drag tires but had other issues that I think prevented us from getting a better time. No matter what it was a 14.3 drag car.
3rd Challenge car was Michael's Miata we took this year. In theory about the same power to weight ratio that we had in the Q45 but it was lower hp overall. It had drag tires and once I learned the launch rpm I could just drop the clutch and hook. Honestly after the launch it was way more difficult to get a good clean run being a manual trans. Guess what same power to weight ratio meant same 14.3ish 1/4 mile time.
So what did I learn? Power to weight ratio really matters a lot. If you can get that ratio with lower weight that means lower hp needed for the ratio and lower hp means easier to control the launch.
Of course I may be totally wrong and I just wasted your time making you read all that.
That's helpful. Thank you. Do they have "pro's " for drag racing like they do for autocross?
My one pass in a new Honda Civic demonstrator doesn't tell me anything except how much thrashing a new car would take. ( I trophied so I couldn't run again)
Nitrous: some engines will take as much as the motor makes stock, sometimes a bit more. When you spray depends on traction, sometimes you can do it right on the hit, sometimes you have to wait until 2nd or 3rd gear.
There is a big difference between a "decent set or regular tires" and drag slicks. Not just in traction, but in keeping the rest of the drivetrain alive. They make a nice shock absorber if used correctly. Trying to figure out what a set of tires will do is complicated as it's related to the tire itself, size, gearing, etc. They will effect et, but most of that is in the 60' so big impact (tenth in 60' is worth two in the 1/4).
A straight axle is a bit easier but we drag race fwd cars with mcphearson struts and can cut 1.4x 60's and I think a rwd car even with a wonky alignment could beat that.
"Up in smoke" depends on how much power can be applied to the "prepped" surface by your tire of choice. I've seen slicks go up in smoke on 250hp and hard regular street tires hook on 500hp...
My question: why a T400 for such a light vehicle?
I used to race on the old bfg and first gen nitto dr's at 3000# with a whole 200rwhp... usually was a bald spot in launch because the cars all had the same wheelbase, fox body mustang, and finally worked it to a 1.6x 60'. That netted a 13.40@100 qtr mile time.
At the challenge, I had nt01's and I think had a 1.8? 60' and 16.9@75-ish time. They were all "decent" launches, but they all sucked because it bogged at the 4500rpm launch. Stupid no torque 1.6L Miata....I also didn't change a thing alignment wise, just tire pressure.
In reply to frenchyd :
Is this for the challenge, or just trying it once for fun, or going to be a regular thing?
Drag racing is an awesome hobby because there is a lot of tracks so most people aren't too far from one, they typically run every friday night and Saturday so easy to fit it into your schedule, entry fees usually are fairly cheap, and if your car isn't too fast the cost of safety equipment is low. Also with a bracket racing type setup you dont need to spend big bucks to be competitive.
If you have 400 hp and weigh less than 2000 pounds I wouldn't worry about adding more power. Learn how to drive. Go to the track this spring. A year on the internet won't teach you as much as one day at the track. I would start out with a "test and tune day". Those usually get you more passes and you dont have to mess with elimination rounds. Learn how to launch. Most races are won and lost at the starting light. Learn how to be consistent. Find out how fast the car can be, and once you can consistently make the car go that fast, then you can start thinking making the car faster.
In reply to gearheadmb :
Well since it would cost so much to drive to Florida and back ( about 3000 miles round trip ) I'm going to do my own Minnesota challenge. 1/4 mile strip is still a 1/4 mile up here in the arctic wasteland. So I'll do my own challenge.
No it won't be this year maybe not even next year. But once the MGuar is finished I find an autocross and a drag strip locally. Maybe a few localish GRMers will join me?
I won't make more than a pass or two. I'm old and my reaction time can be measured with a sun dial plus other than going when the light turns green I don't know what I'm doing.
gearheadmb said:
In reply to frenchyd :
Is this for the challenge, or just trying it once for fun, or going to be a regular thing?
Drag racing is an awesome hobby because there is a lot of tracks so most people aren't too far from one, they typically run every friday night and Saturday so easy to fit it into your schedule, entry fees usually are fairly cheap, and if your car isn't too fast the cost of safety equipment is low. Also with a bracket racing type setup you dont need to spend big bucks to be competitive.
If you have 400 hp and weigh less than 2000 pounds I wouldn't worry about adding more power. Learn how to drive. Go to the track this spring. A year on the internet won't teach you as much as one day at the track. I would start out with a "test and tune day". Those usually get you more passes and you dont have to mess with elimination rounds. Learn how to launch. Most races are won and lost at the starting light. Learn how to be consistent. Find out how fast the car can be, and once you can consistently make the car go that fast, then you can start thinking making the car faster.
So how fast would you expect that car to be? I mean is it a 20 second car a 10 second car or?
Top gear once took a thrashed old Jaguar XJS put a nitrous kit on it and beat every other car in a 1/2 mile race including a Turbo Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari etc.
The Jaguar probably weighed 3200 pounds while I expect to be in that 1600-1800 pound region. With another 150 hp over stock. And whatever a nitrous kit will add
" other than going when the light turns green I don't know what I'm doing. "
If you think you wait until the light turns green you definitely don't know what your doing in drag racing. Waiting for the green is a guaranteed way to lose a drag race. Cutting a light is the single most important and difficult part of drag racing competitively. Driving the finish line to keep from taking too much stripe and/or breaking out is the second. As far as the car goes, getting it to hook consistently is paramount. With 400+ HP and only 2000 lbs, that should be quite a challenge. It's all about weight transfer, gotta get the car to rotate around the rear axle, get the weight to the rear quickly, smoothly. Should look something like this but with 1600 fewer pounds of dead weight.
In reply to Ranger50 :
The T400 is what's hooked up to the engine. (Which on average cost me $128 ) While I have a Senz 5 speed triple disk 7&1/4 aluminum flywheel etc I could just bolt on, the value of just that would put me way way over $2000
In reply to stukndapast :
Yes there is a lot to learn about drag racing. My one pass in a Honda Civic nearly 50 years ago isn't going to teach me and I could flail forever trying to cut a perfect light and keep the tires from going up in smoke
But I'll take my best pass of two (if I get 2 ) and call it good.
Hang on, guys!
He's asking about drag racing at the Challenge- NOT elimination head to head drag racing.
Cutting the light is meaningless at the Challenge. Only elapsed time matters in the end. Even the seasoned drag racers like the Nelsons sit there and wait for the light then launch. Why risk red lighting?? That's a waste of energy (and potential broken parts) for a run that doesn't count.
In reply to frenchyd :
I would suggest the best starting point to learn drag racing is to show up at the track in your street driven sedan.
Ask questions. Lots of them. Then try a few runs. Ask more questions in between.
Try a few different launches. See what helps. Learn to get over the adrenaline rush and control what you do.
Don't take a car that you are pushing to the limits and potentially breaking. Drive something easy first. Learn what it feels like sitting at the tree, how to roll out, etc. If you want to learn how to "cut the lights", now is a good time. (That means getting the best reaction time). But it's an unnecessary skill at the Challenge.
At the end of the track, you will receive a time slip. It will tell you your launch time, 1/8 mile time, top speed, 1/4 mile time, etc. Each piece of info will tell you something different. Share your time slip with others, and ask more questions.
After you've experienced it in a plain vanilla street driver, then you can be concerned about how to make a race car faster.
In reply to frenchyd :
The raw math on an 1800 lb car with 400 hp says it could be a 10 second car. That's plenty! Don't worry about nitrous, etc.
However, your car won't run 10's. You don't have enough experience. It's more likely it will run 16's the first time, and you can get it down into the 13's or 14's after a little bit of practice. (Perhaps in the first day). A 3 second improvement is evidence of a really inexperienced and inconsistent driver. A good driver with a well sorted car will probably be searching for tenth of a second improvements.
The 10 second mark is simply a mathematical formula. It is the optimum. You won't get there until you spend a lot of time tweaking both the car and the driver.
No, the Challenge does not have pro drivers for the drags. Anyone can drive. If you are considering a remote "self" version of the Challenge, you can ask anyone you know or meet at the track to drive. I recommend letting a better driver take it for a few runs after you try it- it will give you a few goals to shoot for, and the more experienced driver can help give you suggestions on how to launch and improve YOUR car.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
Hang on, guys!
He's asking about drag racing at the Challenge- NOT elimination head to head drag racing.
Cutting the light is meaningless at the Challenge. Only elapsed time matters in the end. Even the seasoned drag racers like the Nelsons sit there and wait for the light then launch. Why risk red lighting?? That's a waste of energy (and potential broken parts) for a run that doesn't count.
Well, if THAT'S the case, then it isn't drag racing, it is a 1/4 mile time trial. Big difference. If reaction time doesn't figure into the score you can wait as long as you want! Don't spin, hit your shift points and keep your foot planted. Easy-peezy.
In reply to frenchyd :
BTW, I totally love your idea of a self "Minnesota Challenge". I'd be thrilled to see GRM pick up that idea and run with it.
There is no reason some variation of this couldn't be done all over the country, and encourage lots of people to participate!!
I'd love to see an online Concors- readers judge cars based on online pics, descriptions, videos, etc.
In reply to stukndapast :
Call it what you want. That's the way the Challenge works.
I would argue that if it's a real 400 hp and can work out the short track it is a deep 10s car at that weight. Similarly, I would guess this one at mid 12's at 120mph due to experience level.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
I agree.
But part of my estimate included the presumption that it's not a real 400 hp.
Many of us Challengers are guilty of throwing a bunch of parts at a project that "should be 400 hp", but fail to dyno test or consider the fact that our parts are cheap because it's a 200,000 mile engine with a trans that has no 2nd gear!
I believe in Frenchy's abilities. I just know what the combination of cheap parts usual means for 1st time Challenge entrants. It will take time (years) for him to develop the car to its full potential.
Even the Nelsons usually take a couple years before their cars are at their best!
At 1600-1800 lbs with an IRS, you are gonna run out of traction LONG before you use all that power.
So, first time out you will struggle to get it in the 14's. Then you will go home, and begin working on how to maximize your traction at launch.
Looking forward to it.
Regarding nitrous...
The best setup, especially for a beginner, won't include a "button you hold". It will have a trigger circuit that activates a solenoid to spray at a predetermined moment (like wide-open throttle).
I usually just wire mine into the TPS.
At least a th400 has a shot at having a few speeds instead of a 4lneutrals 
I don't think 400 will be that bad with an irs even one that isn't set up well should 60' better than we can fwd. But definitely not something you figure out in a pass or two, I am at a few decades and still learning every time.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Nitrous: some engines will take as much as the motor makes stock, sometimes a bit more. When you spray depends on traction, sometimes you can do it right on the hit, sometimes you have to wait until 2nd or 3rd gear.
There is a big difference between a "decent set or regular tires" and drag slicks. Not just in traction, but in keeping the rest of the drivetrain alive. They make a nice shock absorber if used correctly. Trying to figure out what a set of tires will do is complicated as it's related to the tire itself, size, gearing, etc. They will effect et, but most of that is in the 60' so big impact (tenth in 60' is worth two in the 1/4).
A straight axle is a bit easier but we drag race fwd cars with mcphearson struts and can cut 1.4x 60's and I think a rwd car even with a wonky alignment could beat that.
What determines which engines are good candidates for nitrous? Is it block strength? crankshaft? connecting rod? Pistons?
Since I'm going to be using old junk I've had laying around for decades and wire wheels I doubt I'll be as brutal to the driveline as real drag racers. I'd rather give away a little at the line than break stuff. I'll try a few starts in my driveway to see about how much it will takebefore the tires go up in smoke.
In reply to frenchyd :
Ones that are internal combustion.
In reply to frenchyd :
Nitrous isn't a fuel.
Nitrous cools the charge so more molecules of air/fuel mix can be stuffed in the cylinder for detonation. It should work on every engine.
