Do Metal Miata hardtops exist? V2

SV reX said:

L0b56 said:

"2023 Edition ARA Rally Technical Rules pg. 19
4.1.2 Exterior Bodywork
a) All bodywork changes from OEM must be submitted to ARA Technical Director for
approval a minimum of 45 days before start of event and approved by ARA before
being used in competition.
b) Roof, A & B pillars must be metallic and retain factory profile. C pillars must retain
factory profile."

"2023 Edition ARA Rally Technical Rules pg. 9
2.2.12 Roofs
Movable metal sunroofs and/or roof panels must be fixed in the closed position.
Sunroofs and/or roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal of
equivalent strength of the roof panel and must be fixed in the closed position by welding
or steel fasteners."

I'm looking at these rules again, and wondering if we are all over-thinking it.  
 

It says the roof needs to be metallic, but it doesn't actually say there needs to be a roof. It says sunroofs and roof panels that are not metal need to be replaced with metal and secured, but it doesn't say a car with no roof needs a metal roof fabricated. 
 

I'll be interested in hearing what responses you get to your emails, but I agree with Stampie.  Keep it REALLY simple. Don't assume things. 

roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal of
equivalent strength of the roof panel and must be fixed in the closed position

Pretty sure a convertible top is a "roof panel of any other material". But yeah, it's rally, the intent is for the car to have a structural roof in the first place which is probably why convertibles aren't specifically mentioned.

dps214 said:

SV reX said:

L0b56 said:

"2023 Edition ARA Rally Technical Rules pg. 19
4.1.2 Exterior Bodywork
a) All bodywork changes from OEM must be submitted to ARA Technical Director for
approval a minimum of 45 days before start of event and approved by ARA before
being used in competition.
b) Roof, A & B pillars must be metallic and retain factory profile. C pillars must retain
factory profile."

"2023 Edition ARA Rally Technical Rules pg. 9
2.2.12 Roofs
Movable metal sunroofs and/or roof panels must be fixed in the closed position.
Sunroofs and/or roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal of
equivalent strength of the roof panel and must be fixed in the closed position by welding
or steel fasteners."

I'm looking at these rules again, and wondering if we are all over-thinking it.  
 

It says the roof needs to be metallic, but it doesn't actually say there needs to be a roof. It says sunroofs and roof panels that are not metal need to be replaced with metal and secured, but it doesn't say a car with no roof needs a metal roof fabricated. 
 

I'll be interested in hearing what responses you get to your emails, but I agree with Stampie.  Keep it REALLY simple. Don't assume things. 

roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal of
equivalent strength of the roof panel and must be fixed in the closed position

Pretty sure a convertible top is a "roof panel of any other material". But yeah, it's rally, the intent is for the car to have a structural roof in the first place which is probably why convertibles aren't specifically mentioned.

For reasons I am not aware of, the rules are avoiding the use of the word "Convertible" or "Soft Top"

Here is a picture of a Miata with a GT6 roof grafted on. You gotta ignore the MGB sheet-metal being grafted on at the same time. The windows on this effort did close.

In reply to NOHOME :

That looks great!

In reply to dps214 :

I agree that's likely the intent. But it isn't specifically what is written. You are making an assumption.

Every form of racing that has ever existed relies (in part) on finding the loopholes in the rules. 
 

I'll be interested to here the response to your email. 
 

That reminds me, there's a kit in the UK that uses an E-type hatch. Maybe you could find a junked E-type and weld that top on :)

In reply to NOHOME :

I saw that car elsewhere recently. He had to widen that roof to fit ,looks like four or five inches, and do the same to the hatch. Myself, I can't see ARA approving a grafted on roof unless it's really well done, complete with structural B and C pillars, properly connected to the Miata chassis. I will admit to having similar thoughts to the OP, too. I think a miata might be a fun rally car.

There have been Miata rally cars. We had a customer in Europe who raced one for years. There's at least one that's raced in Oz. Dan Edmunds raced one in SCCA before they were outlawed. There have been a number that have competed in the various Targa events in the world, which are tarmac rallies.

NASA actually has a "can I rally a Miata?" answer in their FAQ. That last bit seems odd - a bit of fibreglassing around the edge would possibly meet the rule, but would add no meaningful strength. Is this so it doesn't get torn off in an accident?

Yes, you can rally a Miata. You would need to do the following:

• Have a fully compliant rally cage installed.
• On top of the cage, you would need to weld on a metal roof.
• Helmets have to demonstrate safe clearance from the cage.
• On top of that, the factory hard top would have to be permanently attached to the car. Not "latched" or "bolted", but something that was actually permanent, meaning it would have to be destroyed to be removed.

In-car from the German team for inspiration.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That is for NASA, the only stage rally Miata in the US in recent history was approved to run with NASA. I highly doubt ARA will ever approve it to run but only they can answer the question on what would work. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Or weld the latches shut 

In reply to EvanB :

I realize that's NASA, I was just providing examples of how a similar rule set could be satisfied. I agree that only ARA can answer the legality in their own events.

Is there an introductory section in the ARA rules which defines what cars are eligible (or ineligible)?

Maybe convertibles aren't mentioned because they are addressed elsewhere?

dps214 said:

roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal of
equivalent strength of the roof panel and must be fixed in the closed position

Pretty sure a convertible top is a "roof panel of any other material". But yeah, it's rally, the intent is for the car to have a structural roof in the first place which is probably why convertibles aren't specifically mentioned.

In the context of automobile roofs in rule sets and regulations, I have only ever seen the term 'panel' used to describe an explicitly rigidish material... Glass, plastic, composite, etc. I have never seen a soft top fall referred to under that categorization. Admittedly, it would be fun to see what a top made from 'metal of equivalent strength' to a vinyl Miata top would look like, and what would happen to it under aero loads at speed.

SV reX said:

Is there an introductory section in the ARA rules which defines what cars are eligible (or ineligible)?

 

Maybe convertibles aren't mentioned because they are addressed elsewhere?

 

 

Yeah, I think this is the case. 

3.6.2 Vehicle Eligibility
The vehicle must be based on a model built by a recognized motor vehicle manufacturer. It is the intent of these rules that all vehicles be based on production vehicles built for road use. Eligibility is restricted to street-licensed, closed-bodied vehicles. Non-production-based vehicles built from the ground up, are explicitly prohibited.

In reply to APEowner :

Im curious to see how they define a closed-bodied vehicle, and if they allow you to convert an open-bodied vehicle to a closed one.

I'm still waiting on a from Doug Nagy, the ARA Technical Director.

In reply to L0b56 :

It's certainly worth asking the question.

I just read through some of the ARA items and the word "convertible" is not mentioned anywhere at all in the rules but under roof you have:

"2.2.12 Roofs Movable metal sunroofs and/or roof panels must be fixed in the closed position. Sunroofs and/or roof panels of any other material must be replaced with metal of equivalent strength of the roof panel and must be fixed in the closed position by welding or steel fasteners." ,

"Roof, A & B pillars must be metallic and retain factory profile. C pillars must retain factory profile."

Scrolling through results over the past year there are 0 miatas (or other convertible optioned) listed as entering any of the 21 events..

Seems unlikely that one will be allowed.

3.6.2 seems to preclude any removable top car, and adding a top to one that did not have one would count as non production based.

There is a lot of CYA involved in this sort of thing, and from a safety and liability standpoint they want you starting with known factors engineered by people with millions of dollars of R&D, not some guy in a shed with a sheetmetal brake and a welder and some general ideas.

Would YOU let someone else run your car and possibly nail a tree upside down at 90mph.  If it is in a modern car with a well engineered passenger compartment and the latest roll cage revisions (safety rules are written with blood) then you have done everything you can reasonably be able to do.

I think the ARA rule book is pretty clear that Miatas are very much not allowed.  If all you had to do is weld some roof panels on top of the cage, people (including me) would be running one.  And I think the FAQ from the NASA section is meant to be read as, "No you can't run a Miata," rather than "Here's the absurd things you can do run a Miata."  But don't listen to us, why not just email ararallytech@usacracing.com?  I had a few questions sorting my car and Doug got back to me promptly.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Very good point, I can see why ARA would try and restrict cars with convertible tops as they are a driving safety concern. However, I still believe it's worth a shot at the very least since the rules say that you're able to make changes from the OEM under the condition that you present it to the Technical director (which I'm still waiting to receive a response from). I'll also talk to some of my coworkers who help design the rally cars that we build, and see if they have any input that might help lead me to make a decision.

L0b56 said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Very good point, I can see why ARA would try and restrict cars with convertible tops as they are a driving safety concern. However, I still believe it's worth a shot at the very least since the rules say that you're able to make changes from the OEM under the condition that you present it to the Technical director (which I'm still waiting to receive a response from). I'll also talk to some of my coworkers who help design the rally cars that we build, and see if they have any input that might help lead me to make a decision.

If you just need a  metal, OEM designed roof on your Miata you can just do what I did. If need be you can  flip the script and declare that you are running a Volvo with chassis mods.

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the interpretations of smart men."  Colin Chapman

After reading the rule text it seems to address the different issue of removable roof panels.   Nothing about removable hardtops, which are not panels like on a Targa style roof, or sliding style sunroofs.    

In reply to NOHOME :

I think this is what I'll to have to do seeing as the ARA are really picky. But the way it was explained to me from my coworkers was that, the ARA loves their OEM, and wants all competition vehicles to be as close as possible to OEM. Things that are not critical to the rigidity of the chassis like front fenders and bumpers can be changed out. However things that are critical to the rigidity of the chassis like quarter panels and roofs cannot be changed, unless heavily inspected by the Technical director and done by a reputable shop.

When it comes to the Miata, the soft vinyl and hard fiberglass top don't contribute any rigidity in the roof when compared to a steel top that is welded to the frame. Again to my understanding if there was a metal factory counterpart to the fiberglass hardtop that you could weld to the Miata it would be possible to run the car in ARA. Additionally, it might be possible to create one from scratch that is within +/- 1mm to the OEM fiberglass top. It also might be possible to say that my Miata is one of the 150 special edition coupes, but I'm not sure how that would pan out.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this

There is no wiggle-room to this statement: "Eligibility is restricted to street-licensed, closed-bodied vehicles. Non-production-based vehicles built from the ground up, are explicitly prohibited."  This means a Miata does not meet the most basic standard of eligibility.

You can't claim that your car is a special edition coupe because it's not--it's a convertible, and a convertible isn't closed-body.

A metal hard top won't change the fact that the car is not a closed-bodied vehicle.  The rules also contain a very extensive list of things you can modify, and "weld a roof on" is not one of them.  Nor is "weld on a Volvo."  Welding a sunroof closed is required, but attempting to read that as a loophole to let you weld a roof on isn't going to fly.

You're not the first person who's wanted to run a Miata with ARA--if it were allowed I'm certain there would be dozens of them and I'd be running one instead of a perpetually-broken BMW.  If you somehow convince them to change their minds, I'm all in!

In reply to Berck :

Agreed, it's an unfortunate case as I'm sure the Miata would perform extremely well but is obviously not possible. Maybe at some point ARA will change their minds, but until then I'll start looking for a crappy old Volvo.

Additionally, even if someone could get their hands one of the 150 coupe Miatas, it would still be illegal to change the material of the top to something more favorable.

Keith Tanner said:

Yes, you can rally a Miata. You would need to do the following:

• On top of the cage, you would need to weld on a metal roof.
• On top of that, the factory hard top would have to be permanently attached to the car. Not "latched" or "bolted", but something that was actually permanent, meaning it would have to be destroyed to be removed.

Between those two rules I would have to add a metal top AND a stock hardtop. Two layers of roof!