Excellent. Diesel brothers fined $850K plus $1.2m in fees.

When will be my last chance to get an EGR, DPF, SCR and CAT delete, and a tune done on my VWs?

I'm actually serious, these will probably be the last diesels I'll own.

In reply to 06HHR :

And my son in law only drives one f250 diesel.  Whats your point? If its bad, its bad.  Add up all the top fuel drag races in the world in a year, add every track day, F1, stock car, demolition derby and on and on and on.   Im just saying the people cheering for this will be the ones crying one day, i promise.   I mean, if its an insignificant portion why dont we compare Brodozers to Chinese cars and bikes?  When you look at that its a bit different story.  If one is bad, its all bad, period, no matter how small it is.  The Diesel Brothers do good things for people, the show doesnt involve cussing and arguing, they are HARDCORE patriots, at least on the outside.  Just seems like with all the dirtbags doing slimy E36 M3 picking on them if berkeleyed up.

JesseWolfe said:

When will be my last chance to get an EGR, DPF, SCR and CAT delete, and a tune done on my VWs?

 

I'm actually serious, these will probably be the last diesels I'll own.

That's been illegal since the 70's and the makers of such products are currently under active prosecution. FYI.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

There's a large segment (not me so much) that clearly believes making huge, dirty horsepower is entertaining. I believe MotorTrend pays people to do it on tv as a matter of fact.

I'm guessing my posts come off as combative but I'm just trying to reveal how hypocritical some of these accusations can be. 
 

If there's a law and it gets broken then there's a price to pay. I just can't sit here and pretend I'm any better or worse of a person or care more or less about society's health because I've made a few modifications to my car. 

I liken it to getting slapped in the face either very hard or just really hard. Both aggressors are guilty. If it makes one feel better about the assault because they only slapped the guy really hard well...

The problem is that it's not a black or white (ebony or ivory?) thing. Nobody's keeping score on who has more green points, the guy who DDs a Camry or the guy who cleans up the woods. But we all make decisions as to whether to prioritize ourselves ("if I do this, my engine will last longer/make more power/make lots of cool smoke") or not ("if I do this, I'll increase emissions"). And we all have different criteria that we use to make those decisions. It's how those different criteria rub up against those of other people that creates friction.

In reply to Knurled. :

I live in Alabama, every 4th car needs an O2 sensor

Can we please stop talking about morality?  First of all, no one thinks they're doing the "wrong" thing.  They might believe they're doing a wrong thing for the right reason.  I have driven a car a block down the street on open headers to have someone install an exhaust.  It was "wrong" but it was easier than pushing it.  I have spilled oil in the driveway and didn't call a hazmat cleaner.  We've all done far worse by driving vehicles that don't get proper tune-ups.  Right now my LT1 has a broken manifold bolt which is causing it to run a little rich on bank 1, but the check engine light isn't on.  I'm polluting more than I should, but I'm not just going to park the car until I fix it.

The real folly is equating legality with morality.  The law is there as a huge generalization.  We drivers tend to generalize it as "well, it runs good and the CEL isn't on, so that means we're moral."  Trust this:  Your car can pass a sniffer within a very wide range of parameters.  Max HC for ASM2525 might be 147ppm, but a well-tuned car might only put out 25-40ppm.  You have to be WAY off before you fail a sniffer or get a CEL.  You might be thinking you're doing everything right, but actually clubbing baby seals.

Saying that following emissions laws makes you moral is just ridiculous.  It means you're legal.  It means that you are destroying the environment slowly enough that the a government agency is ok with it.  Cars are like sewer treatment plants.  It doesn't convert all the poop into skittles and sunshine, it just makes it slightly less awful before it gets dumped in the river.  If you drive a Tesla and I drive a 67 LeMans with high compression and a choppy cam, that doesn't make you moral, at best it makes you slightly less immoral.  You're just destroying the environment a little slower by burning slightly less fossil fuel to get your electricity and causing the use of hundreds of gallons of crude to make the plastics and batteries that go into making a new car.  Also, since my 67 LeMans will likely burn primarily ethanol, I'll keep pointing out the folly of fake environmentalists.

Teslas don't have smog emissions, they have smug emissions.

In reply to irish44j :

So what youre really saying is because you dont like the way they increase their pollution output its bad, but if an engine builder installs bigger injectors and turns up the boost, because you might think thats a better use of pollution its ok?  

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Clearly you're not being hypocritical here. It looks like you're simply being realistic. I do see and have seen in several other past threads where the hypocrisy is absolutely rampant from a few members. I want and expect to have my hypocrisy pointed out and that's what I try to do whenever I see it. 
 

Curtis73 said:

Saying that following emissions laws makes you moral is just ridiculous.  It means you're legal.  It means that you are destroying the environment slowly enough that the a government agency is ok with it.  Cars are like sewer treatment plants.  It doesn't convert all the poop into skittles and sunshine, it just makes it slightly less awful before it gets dumped in the river.

I'm guessing that's me.

I'm equating our laws with our agreed-up societal morals because, well, I don't have anything else. If you are legal, you are sticking with what society has decided is acceptable. And yes, I have my own moral code. But if you're trying to come up with "points" for who is being a better person than another, the law is an actual agreed-upon and well defined metric.

And now, thanks to the ninja edit about the "smug emissions" from Telsas, I'm out. We're into personal attacks. Enjoy, everyone.

For those who think I'm defending these guys breaking the law on TV, im not, i cant stand the smell of diesel, i do not support rolling coal.  What im saying is that going after these guys, putting them out of business, and taking their money to waste in Washington and cheering about it on a forum about modifying and racing cars, bikes, trucks, E36 M3, TRAINS is super dangerous and, imho hypocritical 

Keith Tanner said:

Curtis73 said:

Saying that following emissions laws makes you moral is just ridiculous.  It means you're legal.  It means that you are destroying the environment slowly enough that the a government agency is ok with it.  Cars are like sewer treatment plants.  It doesn't convert all the poop into skittles and sunshine, it just makes it slightly less awful before it gets dumped in the river.

I'm guessing that's me.

I'm equating our laws with our agreed-up societal morals because, well, I don't have anything else. If you are legal, you are sticking with what society has decided is acceptable. And yes, I have my own moral code. But if you're trying to come up with "points" for who is being a better person than another, the law is an actual agreed-upon and well defined metric.

That was actually directed at the faction of society who doesn't inform themselves and thinks they're saving the environment by buying a new car that gets better MPGs.  Not directed at anyone specifically.

I respect your viewpoint, but I could not possibly disagree more.  Society hasn't determined anything.  Legislators with some numbers that they don't understand, from car companies and aftermarket lobbyists, have signed pieces of paper that put tiny restrictions on you and me while ignoring oil companies, trans-oceanic shipping, agriculture, and manufacturing.  At best, the emissions laws slightly curtail a tiny fraction of what pollutes our environment.  If that makes people feel better, that isn't morality, it's ignorance of fact.

Well-defined metric, yes.  Moral or socially agreed-upon?  Hell no.

In reply to Justjim75 :

My point is, all the top fuel races in the world in a year don't add up to every F250 diesel sold in a year. If i'm following your logic, then we should ban all motorsports everywhere because the Diesel Brothers got a fine for tuning trucks to roll coal.  Not saying top fuel is a meaningful use of resources by any means, but how many top fuel cars do you see on your daily commute?  And, where is the law that says a top fuel car has to meet emissions standards? 

Look, I don't even have anything against the Diesel Brothers, they look like a bunch of fun-loving guys.  But they broke the law.  Does it mean that they are monsters?  No, good people break the law every minute of every day.  Just take a trip down I-75 and see the families speeding to get to Disney World/Universal.  So, i'm not breaking out the torches and pitchforks for these guys, they broke the law, they got caught. Simple as that. 

Keith Tanner said:

Curtis73 said:

Saying that following emissions laws makes you moral is just ridiculous.  It means you're legal.  It means that you are destroying the environment slowly enough that the a government agency is ok with it.  Cars are like sewer treatment plants.  It doesn't convert all the poop into skittles and sunshine, it just makes it slightly less awful before it gets dumped in the river.

 

And now, thanks to the ninja edit about the "smug emissions" from Telsas, I'm out. We're into personal attacks. Enjoy, everyone.

Ummm.... A) that was levity, not a personal attack.  B) everything I mentioned about new electric cars causing pollution is true and easily researched.  If it offended you that you learned a truth about your car, don't blame me.  I wasn't talking about "You, Keith, the Telsa owner."  Jeez man.

Justjim75 said:

In reply to irish44j :

So what youre really saying is because you dont like the way they increase their pollution output its bad, but if an engine builder installs bigger injectors and turns up the boost, because you might think thats a better use of pollution its ok?  

I don't remember me saying that at all. Did I make some kind of comments on engine builders?. In fact I have five cars (including a race car)and all of them have essentially stock engines and stock fuel systems with full emission systems. So while I am certainly hypocritical on some things, this is not one of them. 

But don't get me wrong - I am not against people using their cars in non-practical ways, nor against people modifying their engines to get worse fuel economy or whatever, and attempt to get horsepower or whatnot.. I'm just against shiny happy people blowing stinky ass black smoke all over the place when I'm driving. if you want to drive a 1,000 horsepower truck down the street in front of me that gets 5 mi a gallon but doesn't stink and spew black smoke, I'm fine with that. I am not making a Save The Earth argument here. I'm simply making a don't be an a****** to the other people on the road around you.

Just like if I am on an elevator and you get on and purposely rip a giant loud stinky fart... I will also think you are an a******. Have some f****** manners and wait till you get off to rip it! We all fart, but in polite society, you don't fart right in somebodys face. Which is essentially what the coal rolling guys are doing.

Justjim75 said:

In reply to 06HHR :

they are HARDCORE patriots, at least on the outside.  

Unrelated to the topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. I see too many people wear patriotism on their sleeve. I remember driving down a street on September 12th 2001 and every mailbox had a flag on it. Where were those flags the day, week, month, or year before?  It's easy to say you're a patriot but are you electing people that take care of our veterans? One thing I hate to see is a car dealership with the huge American flag that you can see for miles. They aren't patriots.  They're just hoping it'll sell more cars. Ok off my soap box now. 

Everything becomes a freaking debate with political undertones. There should have been but one post on the subject -  along the lines of "F those guys. They got what they deserved." End of story. 

Some of you forget that part of the morality of this is the economic impact.  Companies that make legal parts got cheated out of customers or profits or even potential markets due to cheaters like this.  That was my original point.  Let alone the expectations of their customers- did any of them expect a legal part?

Yes I did question someone who seemed to not care about the laws and why they were written in the first place.  Given the public benefit for the laws, they seem pretty nice to have.  And given the benefit for health...

But first and foremost- it's an economic question of cheats.  That does hurt the honest companies that produce aftermarket products, and it makes them look really bad as an industry.

ebonyandivory said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You make your points very well!

I have to mention though:  I do drive the truck as my only vehicle and I very rarely use its capabilities. Someone needs to tell me where I fall in the "he doesn't care about his fellow humans as much as X" gradient.

I just want to know where I stand and does the fact that I heavily recycle affect my score?

Pretty murky waters we swim in!

I know you're trying to stimulate thought and discussion, but your question is easy. If you've left the emissions regulation equipment in place, you're smack in the middle of where society thought driving was clean enough not to cause general harm for the period when that vehicle was made. If you keep your truck in good tune, maintain it and drive it until it no longer becomes practical, you're probably more green than somebody that leases a new Prius every two years.

As for your other green habits, they're placing you above the idiots I see chucking cans and bottles out of their window or just throwing them aside as they're jogging. Yeah, that still happens.
 

Brett_Murphy said:

ebonyandivory said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You make your points very well!

I have to mention though:  I do drive the truck as my only vehicle and I very rarely use its capabilities. Someone needs to tell me where I fall in the "he doesn't care about his fellow humans as much as X" gradient.

I just want to know where I stand and does the fact that I heavily recycle affect my score?

Pretty murky waters we swim in!

I know you're trying to stimulate thought and discussion, but your question is easy. If you've left the emissions regulation equipment in place, you're smack in the middle of where society thought driving was clean enough not to cause general harm for the period when that vehicle was made. If you keep your truck in good tune, maintain it and drive it until it no longer becomes practical, you're probably more green than somebody that leases a new Prius every two years.

As for your other green habits, they're placing you above the idiots I see chucking cans and bottles out of their window or just throwing them aside as they're jogging. Yeah, that still happens.
 

it always blows my mind when I see someone in front of me in traffic just chuck trash out the window. Like, in what alternate universe is that even remotely socially acceptable?? (me = the guy with a weeks' worth of random trash stuffed into the door map pocket lol). 

irish44j said:

Brett_Murphy said:

ebonyandivory said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You make your points very well!

I have to mention though:  I do drive the truck as my only vehicle and I very rarely use its capabilities. Someone needs to tell me where I fall in the "he doesn't care about his fellow humans as much as X" gradient.

I just want to know where I stand and does the fact that I heavily recycle affect my score?

Pretty murky waters we swim in!

I know you're trying to stimulate thought and discussion, but your question is easy. If you've left the emissions regulation equipment in place, you're smack in the middle of where society thought driving was clean enough not to cause general harm for the period when that vehicle was made. If you keep your truck in good tune, maintain it and drive it until it no longer becomes practical, you're probably more green than somebody that leases a new Prius every two years.

As for your other green habits, they're placing you above the idiots I see chucking cans and bottles out of their window or just throwing them aside as they're jogging. Yeah, that still happens.
 

it always blows my mind when I see someone in front of me in traffic just chuck trash out the window. Like, in what alternate universe is that even remotely socially acceptable?? (me = the guy with a weeks' worth of random trash stuffed into the door map pocket lol). 

Dude, that's what my passenger footwell is for.

In reply to Curtis73 :

Until every time you drop your kid at school you remind him "Don't kick trash out when you get out!" and then they do it anyway. Not that I've been there or anything. 

Stampie said:

Justjim75 said:

In reply to 06HHR :

they are HARDCORE patriots, at least on the outside.  

Unrelated to the topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. I see too many people wear patriotism on their sleeve. I remember driving down a street on September 12th 2001 and every mailbox had a flag on it. Where were those flags the day, week, month, or year before?  It's easy to say you're a patriot but are you electing people that take care of our veterans? One thing I hate to see is a car dealership with the huge American flag that you can see for miles. They aren't patriots.  They're just hoping it'll sell more cars. Ok off my soap box now. 

 

Thank you, Stampie. 
-sincerely, a cranky old(ish) vet who wishes everyone would just get the hell off his lawn...

This thread...