Factory Five design contest thread

Guys, I was wondering if someone could tell me the location of the fuel door release button in relation to the driver's right pinky finger. It would really help out my design. Thanks!

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Thank you. I understand that FF just wants our ideas. I am not unhappy here, with how things are run or anything else. I am just making some suggestions and questioning some assumptions. I think an appropriate amount of “detail” is important to car design. Many “cool” looking designs won’t work, and are a waste of time because they ignore the most logical issues. Headlamps don’t have to be “exactly” a particular height, they just can’t be 12” to ground (and any design based on such is doomed to failure). This is the same as allowing the package to accommodate the engine and transaxle. I am very positive about the ability of the entrants to take these simple logical issues into account – and make the results better as a result. Your apparent defensiveness and implication that I should leave the forum are missing the point entirely.

olpro:

You raise valid questions, and I believe this thread and the official FFR Forum are the two places where you can raise concerns and maybe get answers.

You pretty much came out of the gate saying this competition looks like its being run by people that don't know what they're doing. It's not necessary to insult the people running the competition to get answers. So what if they are amateurs? Does that mean that they shouldn't be holding the competition? Obviously, the better they run it, the better the entries are likely to be. Perhaps you're a great designer, have hosted numerous professional design contests and can teach them a thing or two. Are you approaching the issue in the way that you think will be most constructive?

I think you'd be better off putting your questions in a simple bullet item form in a more concise manner.

If you feel that their lack of details will turn off great designers, perhaps you should lob a few phone calls/emails and let them know what it takes to attract top talent.

In reply to Evan:

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. You sound like a reasonable guy. It is not my intention to insult anyone, but raising the prospect of “amateurism” simply means that things could be improved. This competition is in its early stage and there is plenty of time to discuss, even debate the rules, etc. I see a rather vigorous debate going on over at the FF site, regarding engines, roofs, etc. It has resulting in FF management examining and clarifying their thoughts publicly. That is good. I’m sure it wasn’t very comfortable for them. I don’t think the competition should be aimed at professionals (just too far to go, and MUCH more expensive) but I would like to see the level raised within the limits of what it is. I think it can be - at this early stage. My opinion only, of course. Any company starting out on this kind of thing will go through a hard learning curve - but they are to be commended on their efforts and vision. Same thing for this magazine and SolidWorks, for participating. Ironically, SolidWorks isn’t the best software for body surface development, regardless of how great it is for chassis, etc. OPS, there I go again 

Olpro, i think your concerns are valid and a few things that are on a few minds. Some of us like more specifics when we jump into a design while others like a lot of lateral freedom. The contest here isnt to design the body for production for FFR. Its to come up with a new shape/style of car that fits the very general criteria. Believe me I would love every detail I could get a hold of. A lot of guys are hand sketching their ideas on the templates provided in which case its not a big deal. Im working in 3d so the details to me really shape the design.

This contest (as far as I know) is the first one of its kind (maybe the last) so any constructive input for the FFR guys im sure is welcome. This thread is already 15 pages thick so I agree with Evan that maybe sticking the questions/concerns in a bullet form on the FFR forum might be the best thing.

On a different topic it seems from everything i have seen all you guys want targa top roadsters:)

In reply to NXXN:

Love it!!!

Coupe Version......

MattPerez wrote: On a different topic it seems from everything i have seen all you guys want targa top roadsters:)

Well, it seems to give the best of both worlds assuming it can be pulled off without leaks (always a challenge). There are a fair number of open roadster kit cars available on the market, some of which even use subaru mechanicals, but the tend to be very bare-bones designs. Many follow the latest "exo-car" trend made popular by the Ariel Atom. I've considered building one of these cars myself, but the more I think about it the more I want REAL foul weather gear. Not some tent I have to erect over the cockpit like most Lotus 7/locost replicas offer. There's something to be said for a proper roof, doors, windows and windshield :) I can't even imagine trying to drive some of these totally open cars with just wet roads, let alone in the rain...

With that said, I think a coupe may be too far the other direction. Trying to design an integrated hard top (like the GTM has) adds some additional complexity and cost to the final body molds unless the body is assembled in discrete pieces, but even then, the seam between the roof, sides and windshield frame can be problematic and require that the entire roof be designed as a single piece.

A targa allows the windshield frame to be integrated into the main body of the car, same with the rear window (the most obvious solution is to extend a roll bar vertically from the main frame members and enclose it in a simple fiberglass C pillar that holds the rear glass and provides the rear mounts for the targa.

armstrom wrote:

MattPerez wrote: On a different topic it seems from everything i have seen all you guys want targa top roadsters:)

I've considered building one of these cars myself, but the more I think about it the more I want REAL foul weather gear. Not some tent I have to erect over the cockpit like most Lotus 7/locost replicas offer. There's something to be said for a proper roof, doors, windows and windshield :) I can't even imagine trying to drive some of these totally open cars with just wet roads, let alone in the rain...

+1 for waterproof-ness. I live in the Seattle area and I would love to have a car like this that I can drive more than the 10 sunny days of the year. Driving in the rain is half the fun! :)

4cylndrfury wrote:

Argo1 wrote: Guys- Here is my stab at a concept which takes cues from some of the current LMP cars.

I like it!. Turn the subie lights sideways...nice approach. I also really like the fenders and the low beltline!

Thanks 4cylndrfury. I actually chose to us OEM or aftermarket Infiniti G35 headlamp units as well as VW New Beetle windshield and side glass. I agree with your comments on the contest. I think some are over-thinking the details. That wasn't the purpose of the contest. FF just wants to see ideas from anyone who wants to send them. Anything from just an original shape scribbled on a napkin a fully worked out design. They aren't looking for pro stuff..nor do they actually want it. With my design I chose to make the nose and tail bumper height, have legal height lights, decent doors, etc. but that was my choice. Who's to say a hot looking Crossbow type roadster isn't the way to go? It's FF's call. It's their contest. Don't rack your brain too hard on the details. Just have fun with it.

NXXN wrote: Coupe Version......

Bingo!!!

olpro wrote: In reply to Evan: Thanks for your thoughtful comments. You sound like a reasonable guy. It is not my intention to insult anyone, but raising the prospect of “amateurism” simply means that things could be improved. This competition is in its early stage and there is plenty of time to discuss, even debate the rules, etc. I see a rather vigorous debate going on over at the FF site, regarding engines, roofs, etc. It has resulting in FF management examining and clarifying their thoughts publicly. That is good. I’m sure it wasn’t very comfortable for them. I don’t think the competition should be aimed at professionals (just too far to go, and MUCH more expensive) but I would like to see the level raised within the limits of what it is. I think it can be - at this early stage. My opinion only, of course. Any company starting out on this kind of thing will go through a hard learning curve - but they are to be commended on their efforts and vision. Same thing for this magazine and SolidWorks, for participating. Ironically, SolidWorks isn’t the best software for body surface development, regardless of how great it is for chassis, etc. OPS, there I go again 

I'm glad you made it over to the FFR forum, Dave Smith has been pretty active in the 818 forum as they've code-named it, so your feedback has a good chance of getting seen over there.

Here's a post from Dave that sheds a little light on their thought process:

""

Dave Smith said: I think a cross-section with engine/trans and seating is reasonable. We have had extensive debate over the question of how much detail to add. We don't want to constrain design freedom and ideas. For example, we are planning on using the Subaru radiator (planning!). We have scanned it and are assuming it will be an important way to reduce the cost of building the car. Also the radiator is matched OEM to the engine etc. Those are the reasons to use the subie rad... BUT what if someone comes up with a rockin cool twin rear duct style body shape. We might want to change the design to use that cool feature/look. I guess the point is that we dont want to constrain creativity. Chassis details (small as opposed to wheelbase, track etc) can be changed where there is a good enough reason. We use CAD and make everything on the screeen first anyway, so sometimes mods are easier than you might think, so the decision to either provide all the details and hurt design freedom was balanced against the value of having final drawings which are the actual, down to the tenth car body... we decided to lean towards more open design paramenters. Hope that explains it. Plus, the judges we have assembled are from ALL different walks of professional life. Our goal was to pick the most exciting, inspiring, and cool designs... then the hard work is set forth for the engineers to bring that to life. By setting the wheelbase, two-seater, mid-engine specs, we really have already added some tremndous constraints. I think and engine, seating cross-section is a good idea to add.

Attracting some pro's wouldn't cost them any more money, since the prize money has already been established. It would only cost the time of anyone that decides to enter.

Here is my drawings of the next Factory Five car.The first drawing is with the hardtop on. The second drawing is with the hardtop off. The third drawing was my first one and I didn't know the exact specs so its not within the chassis specs but its my favorite one.

Hi grassroots forum. I'm equally excited as everyone here about this contest and have been working day and night for the past few days to come up with something to contribute. Here's my first entry! It uses a 2008 Subaru windshield and a front radiator set-up. Hope you guys like it.

In reply to Javelin:

Or the Alpha 8C

In reply to MattPerez:

Actually this is not the first of its kind. Local Motors has a couple of design contests a year, those are pretty cool too and attract some amazing talent. They just finished up a contest to design a military vehicle based on just a little more information than what is given here. I think that pictures should be the big topic here, lets see 'em. Mine are comming.

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

rear engine remember?

Posted this on a couple other forums. I have made changes to a lot of pieces that people have commented on. I want to get as much info on what you guys think as possible.

05xtsy wrote:

Looks nice. At first I was a bit put off by the apparent discrepancy between the design themes of the front and rear halves. The front looks to be Aston Martin inspired (but significantly shortened) while the rear screams Lamborghini. But I think what you did with the door panels and arched belt line helps tie the two together well. It's growing on me :)

^^the changes I am making, so far are tying it together even more. I am going to show an iso view as well.

Argo1 wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

Argo1 wrote: Guys- Here is my stab at a concept which takes cues from some of the current LMP cars.

I like it!. Turn the subie lights sideways...nice approach. I also really like the fenders and the low beltline!

Thanks 4cylndrfury. I actually chose to us OEM or aftermarket Infiniti G35 headlamp units as well as VW New Beetle windshield and side glass.

I just like how small the front end is. There are a lot of good designs in thsi thread, but a lot seem to have more front overhang than a rear engined roadster ought to. But there is some seriously cool stuff going on here!!!!

WOW...I like cars. Thats all Im gonna say. I had more, but Im done now. Im tired and its not even lunch time yet.

In reply to Stavros:

You do realize all your doing is taking a design that has been done and adding to it other designs that have been done. this is an rx7 with the 918 side intake. Thats not designing, thats cut and paste! your blue car is an exact dead ringer for the 918. The 918 has already been designed. All you did was tweak it a bit in photoshop...big deal! Try designing something new that has not been done. sure use other cars for insperation, but dont cut and paste and call it your design.Its poor taste and plagiarism. Just saying...

cardesigner wrote: In reply to tuna55: You do realize all your doing is taking a design that has been done and adding to it other designs that have been done. this is an rx7 with the 918 side intake. Thats not designing, thats cut and paste! your blue car is an exact dead ringer for the 918. The 918 has already been designed. All you did was tweak it a bit in photoshop...big deal! Try designing something new that has not been done. sure use other cars for insperation, but dont cut and paste and call it your design.Its poor taste and plagiarism. Just saying...

You know... there was a movie about the inventer of the intermittent wiper motor that applies here.

At the end of the day, the ONLY thing that matters is whether or not people like it.

My girlfriend is thinking about doing a design and submitting it that would probably give you an aneurysm if you took that much offense at Tuna's submission.

Okay, so then you agree that there's not, probably a single new word in this book. (A Tale of Two Cities) Well, I don't know, but that's probably true. All Charles Dickens did was arrange them into a new pattern, isn't that right? Well, I admit I haven't thought about it in that way. But Dickens did create something new, didn't he? By using words. The only tools that were available to him. Just as almost all inventors in history have had to use the tools that were available to them. Telephones, space satellites all of these were made from parts that already existed, correct, Professor? Parts that you might buy out of a catalog. Technically that's true, yes, but that does... No further questions.

olpro wrote: Several issues arise. One, there is no information on WHO the judges are in the official information, or any thing on the judging process itself.

That's because the judges haven't been finalized yet. You'll have to trust me when I say that some very real names in the automotive design world have been invited, and that our final panel will include designers, engineers, journalists, and a few other individuals with useful input on taking the winning design into production.

olpro wrote: ONLY after reading this thread (which VERY few entrants would have discovered) it is clear that the folks at FF5 and maybe this magazine are going to be making the decisions.

This thread is linked from the template download page. I can see how many page views both have, and I can see how many users clicked to this thread from the download page. "nearly all" would be more accurate than "very few". See above for your assumption on who will be on the judges panel.

olpro wrote: Secondly, there is the issue of what will happen with the final winning entry. Again, the IMPRESSION left from the official entry information is that the winning entry will be PRODUCED. This is not the case, as a reading of this thread itself makes clear. The entrants will be operating under the impression that their design – if it wins – will see production, albeit with some modifications for production! However naïve this impression might be, it could easily be clarified without having to wade through the many pages of this thread to find the truth. The determining issue on this is the fact that, by entering the competition, people GIVE UP the design rights to their ideas, even if they win nothing. It is one thing to enter a professionally judged competition, with a real chance to see their ideas actually produced… but to take a flyer on a lesser contest SHOULD be made clear to them from the outset.

Carefully reading the rules will prevent confusion like this.

The Rules say: 6. Participants in the contest agree that any and all submissions may be used wholly or in part by Factory Five Racing, Inc., at its sole discretion. These submissions may also be used without limitation by Factory Five Racing, Inc., Grassroots Motorsports magazine, and designated associates, partners and affiliates for promotional purposes.

There's certainly no misinformation or unclear intent as I read it. There are some folks who may not read the whole page, but that's why the button to reach the template downloads says "I've read the rules".

I hope this clears up any confusion in your mind; we're reaching out to the enthusiast community to get fresh ideas. As others have mentioned, if these terms aren't to your liking you have no obligation to enter, but we hope you will.