maybe they need to offer a lightning bolt graphics package or something that says "look! my truck is electric"
maybe they need to offer a lightning bolt graphics package or something that says "look! my truck is electric"
In reply to nderwater :
If that was accurate, Rivian would be selling like hotcakes. Their numbers are down too.
Tom Suddard said:A lot of times they tell me they had a reservation at some point, too.
It's not my job to change public opinion of EVs, but Ford should probably talk more about the day-to-day experience and less about the spec sheet.
I had a reservation for one. Had. I made the reservation on opening day *during* the launch event. I confirmed with my chosen dealership (the highest-volume Ford dealer in the state) that I was high in line - in the first two or three reservation spots. I reserved as a returning new Ford buyer, having purchased (and financed) new vehicles with Ford previously.
I was passed over for the first wave of orders. And the second. And the third. I was given no invitation to order during any of those waves. As it turns out, Ford allowed their dealers to "prioritize" certain reservations: they weren't on a first-come basis. The dealer simply sold my spot in line to someone else.
By the time I was finally invited to order, the only trucks available to be built were the mega-expensive ($100k) high-trim options: I wasn't even allowed to select a mid-level trim. At $50 or 60k (before tax incentives) the truck made sense. At 100 large (which also did not classify for tax incentives), not so much. I canceled my reservation and took my hundred bucks back.
Similarly, I put in a request for a Maverick in 2021. Non-hybrid, mid-level trim. That was significantly over two years ago now. Just this week I received an email from Ford saying "Thank you again for your Maverick XLT order. We wanted to let you know that we are still up against supply chain challenges, which are causing delays with getting your vehicle into production. While we understand how frustrated you may be (we are too), rest assured, our team is working diligently and aggressively to get you behind the wheel."
I waited for exactly 16 months to be invited to finally order the Lightning and ended up canceling because Ford royally screwed up the reservation process (seriously, if the dealership is allowed to just sell my spot in line, what is even the point of a first-come system?).
It's been 25 months since my Maverick request. There are Mavericks for sale nearby as stock units now. I don't know what's going on, but Ford does not have a handle on logistics.
Suffice it to say, I have moved on and will be purchasing neither the Maverick nor the Lightning. At one point I was excited for both of them; now I'm so soured by the ordering experience that I wouldn't buy either. Tom, I'm legitimately glad that you like your truck. The EV truck future is an interesting and promising one. However, Ford needs to not only focus on day-to-day experiences but also figuring out how to actually make vehicles and not alienate their customers.
I had a reservation at some point, too.
Here's the problem...
Every variant of the F150 can be produced on the same production line- just different spec sheets. EXCEPT the Lightning.
The Lightning needs its entire own facility and production line.
YTD sales of the Lightning are about 20,000. Projections for next year are about 80,000. Meanwhile, Ford is able to produce about 190,000 F150s of other flavors every single quarter.
Those numbers just simply do not add up for a dedicated facility for 1 vehicle.
Rivian is selling every single vehicle at an average loss of $31,000. They produced 50,000 vehicles this year (best year yet), and are counting on an increased sales volume of 200,000 vehicles per year to make the numbers work. (400,000 in 3 years)
Ford's advantage is that they don't have to build Lightnings. They can shutter Rouge and keep building F150s. Rivian can't do that.
The numbers don't add up for either of them (and they don't add up for their customers either, except for those that want to spend a lot of money to be early adopters).
Actually the problem was not that it was electric, nor that it was even a bad product, THIS was the problem getting it off the ground:
damn greedy dealers nationwide.
Oh boy oh boy do I have some interesting screenshots from trying to buy a lightning... my favorite was a dealer asking something like $60k over sticker because they'd put a lift kit on theirs....
In reply to Tom Suddard :
Dealers have been doing this since they came into existence. Not surprised.
Tom1200 said:In reply to Tom Suddard :
Dealers have been doing this since they came into existence. Not surprised.
And I don't blame them. If some idiot is willing to part with that much cash to be early, that's their problem. A fool and his money, etc. If nobody paid those markups, the dealers wouldn't charge them.
Honestly I wonder if the future for EV trucks is going to be turning towards a "refuge in audacity" like the cybertruck, where you're trying to cause a spectacle and effectively shout "Look at what I have". I keep steadily seeing more Teslas in my region, but only one local Lightning.
brandonsmash said:I had a reservation for one. Had. I made the reservation on opening day *during* the launch event. I confirmed with my chosen dealership (the highest-volume Ford dealer in the state) that I was high in line - in the first two or three reservation spots. I reserved as a returning new Ford buyer, having purchased (and financed) new vehicles with Ford previously.
What vehicle did you end up in getting?
I wish I could say your story with Ford is the only one I've heard, but i've met several people over the 2 years the Bronco has been out that all had the same rattling rear windows because they didn't include the proper guides. That's not missing electronics or screwed up supply chains- stop using that excuse!- it's literally molded plastic!
alfadriver said:All I can say is that I still feel bad for my fellow ICE engineers that were forced to retire for EV engineers. Some are doing well, but some are forced to sue F because of how they were fired.
Anyway, that's not this thread.
F F.
That is all.
gixxeropa said:maybe they need to offer a lightning bolt graphics package or something that says "look! my truck is electric"
Tesla coil on the roof oughta do it. Esp. at night.
If the price is doubled only half as many need to be sold to make the same money.
Or something like that.
I am curious how VW's Scout brand rolls out. They created a new company, probably to break them away from established dealer networks. Will they just go straight to consumer like Tesla to beat this dealership bullE36 M3?
GIRTHQUAKE said:Honestly I wonder if the future for EV trucks is going to be turning towards a "refuge in audacity" like the cybertruck, where you're trying to cause a spectacle and effectively shout "Look at what I have". I keep steadily seeing more Teslas in my region, but only one local Lightning.
What vehicle did you end up in getting?
I ended up buying a '16 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. Well, for the DD aspect. I own a couple HD trucks and a van for work. The Cherokee TH turns out to be awesome! I love that it's easy to drive, and that I can also fit a good amount of E36 M3 in it to run a small job site or to go camping with the wife. It's also surprisingly good off road, and I've taken it down some fairly interesting paths. I've absolutely used the rear locker and hill descent.
Jeep has discontinued the Cherokee for the next model year, and that's a bit sad. I wouldn't mind getting something a bit newer. The Bronco is sexy but 17mpg is terrible. The 2-door is the right exterior size but the tailgate opens wonky and it has surprisingly little storage space. The 4-door wins on space and practicality but then the vehicle's a lot longer, which makes driving and parking (particularly in my driveway) more difficult.
Your "refuge in audacity" comment is particularly interesting. I hadn't considered that, but I suspect you're right. Regarding rattling rear windows: Ford includes the rattles from the factory, free of charge even! In 2015 I bought a brand-new Mustang. Within 800 miles on the odometer I'd started tearing out the interior to fix rattly plastic bits. It drove me nuts.
The utility I work for was bragging when the Lightning came out how many they placed an order for. It was a substantial amount. They ended up with maybe 5 because they said no more were available. Now they are available we still haven't gotten any more. I suspect it is the price.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:Tom1200 said:In reply to Tom Suddard :
Dealers have been doing this since they came into existence. Not surprised.
And I don't blame them. If some idiot is willing to part with that much cash to be early, that's their problem. A fool and his money, etc. If nobody paid those markups, the dealers wouldn't charge them.
I don't disagree; I can't remember what vehicle it was but the sales guy looked at me like I had two heads when I started laughing at thier markup.
With that said the dealers are now choking on their greed.
A 401 CJ said:alfadriver said:All I can say is that I still feel bad for my fellow ICE engineers that were forced to retire for EV engineers. Some are doing well, but some are forced to sue F because of how they were fired.
Anyway, that's not this thread.
F F.
That is all.
I get what you are saying, but I see it more as a short term thing. Especially because of F, I'm sitting on a cruise ship, not having to work anymore.
Toyman! said:If Ford had produced an extended cab, extended range WT for $40k+- I think they would have sold like hotcakes. I would have certainly bought one.
But when I can buy a used XLT Ecoboost truck for $20k+- that gets 20-30mpg (current driver is averaging 22), the numbers just don't work. They don't even come close when the Lightning extended range is $70k. Over the life of the vehicle, the gas truck is cheaper to buy and operate and at the end of the day, the dollars are all that matter to me.
Pretty much this. At any company of size, where vehicle selection does not make editorial content and clicks, its all about the Benajamins, baby. My gas truck (2021 F150) cost my company $59k give or take. A comparably spec'd Lightning is $75k. Deduct the tax credit, and its still more. So throw that right out the window right there. But for the sake of the maths, lets keep going.
By the published numbers, the Lighting Extended Range is good for around 300 miles. The published absolute best charge rates go from 15-80% in 36 minutes with a 150kw DC fast charger. So 65% charge in 36 minutes. But...I can only go 65% of that 300 mile range, so 195 miles, before I need to stop for another 36 minutes assuming I can find a 150KW DC Fast Charger, 2 hours with the more commonly available (but still rare in the midwest) 50kw DC fast charger, or 15 hours with a 6kw charger. Milwaukee, a city of 500,000 people, only has one (1) 50kw public charger and no 150kw chargers.
Again, by the numbers I drove 711 miles in 24 hours as part of my job in my company provided truck. Went to three customers, billable hours worth around $800/hr to the company. If you were my boss, would you rather I spend 15 hours in Clintonville charging my EV assuming I could find a 240V outlet or 6kw charger, or would you rather have me stop at a gas station for 15 minutes?
If you have to charge up a company owned vehicle at home, how is that gonna work? When you live in a doublewide in the middle of E36 M3sburg, who pays for the EV charger to get installed? If you need a new service entrance to the tune of $8k just to charge your company-provided EV, thats a pretty big investment from the company vs just hitting a gas pump now and again. How do you work the billing? It sure is easy to have a gas card.
Just for the lulz, this is the typical EV charging station in the flyover states.
I drive for work.
My company has a simple solution. They pay me a fixed amount monthly for the use of my truck, and give me a gas card to pay for all of my fuel. They are generous- they let me charge all of my personal use fuel too.
If I bought an electric truck, my company most certainly would not pay my home electric bill. Prorating it would mean I'd have to figure out a way to calculate my business usage and get reimbursed, and the company would have to explain to the rest of the employees why they were paying part of my home light bill. We'd have similar issues with reimbursements for recharging on the road. Really messy. The company would make it simple and avoid paying for my electric entirely.
So for me it's simple. My fuel is 100% free right now, or I could spend a lot more money to buy an electric truck and also have to pay for 100% of my fuel. It's a no brainer.
A lot of people are in similar positions as me.
And in case there are some doubters, here is some napkin math laying out some scenarios and the reasoning behind why gas engines still make the most sense (and cents) in the bulk of scenarios.
Feel free to poke holes in this, I feel its pretty reasonable. Numbers are nationwide averages, your particular scenario might be a little different. Some states like Wisconsin charge more per year to register an EV because they dont pay road tax via fuel. $100 is a little heavy for an oil change but that should cover other consumables as well.
Best case scenario. You own the charger and its already installed. You pay nationwide average electrical and regular fuel rates. Lets assume for the sake of discussion that a used lightning and a used F150 will resell for the same delta as new. You are only trying to recoup your initial investment difference.
47,000 miles to break even at current rates.
Now lets say this is your first EV and you need someone to install a charger for you. You already have a 200A home service entrance. Now payback is 85,000 miles.
Need a new service entrance? That's not super cheap but maybe you know a guy and he can do it reasonable. 152,000 miles.
Now lets say our friendly little tax incentive goes away. Maybe you make too many pesos, or not enough, or you just don't like filing your taxes. Woof... 200k miles to break even.
brandonsmash said:Tom Suddard said:A lot of times they tell me they had a reservation at some point, too.
It's not my job to change public opinion of EVs, but Ford should probably talk more about the day-to-day experience and less about the spec sheet.
I had a reservation for one. Had. I made the reservation on opening day *during* the launch event. I confirmed with my chosen dealership (the highest-volume Ford dealer in the state) that I was high in line - in the first two or three reservation spots. I reserved as a returning new Ford buyer, having purchased (and financed) new vehicles with Ford previously.
I was passed over for the first wave of orders. And the second. And the third. I was given no invitation to order during any of those waves. As it turns out, Ford allowed their dealers to "prioritize" certain reservations: they weren't on a first-come basis. The dealer simply sold my spot in line to someone else.
By the time I was finally invited to order, the only trucks available to be built were the mega-expensive ($100k) high-trim options: I wasn't even allowed to select a mid-level trim. At $50 or 60k (before tax incentives) the truck made sense. At 100 large (which also did not classify for tax incentives), not so much. I canceled my reservation and took my hundred bucks.........
I had a reservation at some point, too.
I was first reservation at local dealer. By the time I got an invitation to order, there had been two price increases and you could only choose from Lariat w/extended range and above.
Pass.
And we were really excited to buy one.
My local dealer has the Lightning 5k under msrp. There are tons in this area so I'm sure they're cooling off elsewhere too.
93gsxturbo said:And in case there are some doubters, here is some napkin math laying out some scenarios and the reasoning behind why gas engines still make the most sense (and cents) in the bulk of scenarios.
Feel free to poke holes in this, I feel its pretty reasonable. Numbers are nationwide averages, your particular scenario might be a little different. Some states like Wisconsin charge more per year to register an EV because they dont pay road tax via fuel. $100 is a little heavy for an oil change but that should cover other consumables as well.
Best case scenario. You own the charger and its already installed. You pay nationwide average electrical and regular fuel rates. Lets assume for the sake of discussion that a used lightning and a used F150 will resell for the same delta as new. You are only trying to recoup your initial investment difference.
47,000 miles to break even at current rates.
Now lets say this is your first EV and you need someone to install a charger for you. You already have a 200A home service entrance. Now payback is 85,000 miles.
Need a new service entrance? That's not super cheap but maybe you know a guy and he can do it reasonable. 152,000 miles.
Now lets say our friendly little tax incentive goes away. Maybe you make too many pesos, or not enough, or you just don't like filing your taxes. Woof... 200k miles to break even.
Is that how much you pay per kwhr? Seems like a lot, here in Chicago I thought I was around $0.13.
Regardless, my f150 has 233k on it currently. I expect that more than half will break the 200k mark before they are taken off the roads. So, it seems like a win in the long game, no?
SV reX said:I drive for work.
My company has a simple solution. They pay me a fixed amount monthly for the use of my truck, and give me a gas card to pay for all of my fuel. They are generous- they let me charge all of my personal use fuel too.
If I bought an electric truck, my company most certainly would not pay my home electric bill. Prorating it would mean I'd have to figure out a way to calculate my business usage and get reimbursed, and the company would have to explain to the rest of the employees why they were paying part of my home light bill. We'd have similar issues with reimbursements for recharging on the road. Really messy. The company would make it simple and avoid paying for my electric entirely.
So for me it's simple. My fuel is 100% free right now, or I could spend a lot more money to buy an electric truck and also have to pay for 100% of my fuel. It's a no brainer.
A lot of people are in similar positions as me.
I'll push back a bit on this. From what I've seen, most companies pay a flat rate per mile when folks use their personal vehicles, which is a minimum of 67 cents a mile as of this year per the IRS. So, if you can charge at home during off-peak hours, you're probably ahead with an EV in that case.
All vehicles are too expensive. EVs are just that much more. None of them make any sense. That is the reality.
My wife and I should be near core market for new vehicles, dual-income-no-kids-good-income, but we realize it's financial suicide with the current prices. Add high interest rates to the mix, and even the financially illiterate are a little taken aback by the current market. The next few years are going to be really bumpy for the big three. The Lightning is just a canary in the coal mine.
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