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alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/8/24 5:58 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

Compared to other current Motorsports, what is actually better?  Especially from an engineering standpoint.  LMP doesn't exist anymore, and a lot of the "highlight" years were because of specific rules that benefit diesel- which I would not want to really differentiate against the F1 rules.  

As for DRS, how is it that much worst than any other BOP rule?  If an endurance car becomes dominant, it gets slowed down.  And all of the sub classes from the top have a prescribed time delta to the top class- go faster, and get BOP.

MotoGP doesn't have aero to deal with, so using it as an example, well- I guess you can, but I wouldn't.  

Still, you call F1 WWE and someone else the Olympics.  Who are the "Olympics" right now?  Not 10 years ago, not in some golden days, right now.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/8/24 6:28 p.m.

F1 is no more "entertainment" than NFL, which no one would argue against being the top tier of the sport.

You should go back and watch some races, or start again this year. The past few years have actually been very competitive, with amazing racecraft from many drivers, who are undoubtedly the pinnacle in motorsports currently. It's definitely a sport and they are definitely athletes.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/8/24 6:36 p.m.

The thing that made F1 really appeal to me when I first started watching it in Y2K was that it was a major/pro series with a large degree of freedom in the rule set.  There were essentially no "spec" parts on the car (with the possible exception of the brakes, not sure about those).  Engines?  3.0L, must use pistons, burn gasoline, and no beryllium was kind of about it for rules.  Transmission?  You're allowed 7 forward gears and you must have reverse.  Aero?  Here are boxes that the aero bits have to fit inside -- oh and they're not supposed to move.  Tires?  Here are the dimensions you need to use.  Etc.

Contrast that with CART where there were 2 approved engines, a spec tire, and 3 or 4 chassis listed in the rules, or IRL (or even more so NASCAR) which was essentially completely spec.

Keith will probably chime in with Le Mans/ALMS here, and while it's true that they have a broad variety of technologies available for race cars to use, it isn't really a consistent set of rules.  Instead each manufacturer winds up negotiating about what they want to run, and the ACO adds the limits that it sees necessary to create competition.  It wasn't "here's a set of rules, and if you're clever enough to figure out how to make a fast car within them then you deserve to win".  That's really the argument I have against rewards weight as well -- it's not any less artificial than DRS, and I don't like the principle that teams should be penalized for success.

Of course, the downsides to an open series are that they are expensive and it's difficult to catch up to a team that is already dominant.  F1 is substantially less open than it used to be -- spec tires, spec ECUs, much greater restrictions on what you can do with the aero, etc.  These were all (or at least mostly) done for good reasons, but to me they still take away from the appeal of the sport.  We already have dozens of spec racing series, why do we need to make F1 into another one?

As for why F1 is "the pinnacle of motorsport", it's all about prestige.  F1 has prestige because it has history, it's been an international series since 1950, with races held in many countries around the world, with drivers from many of those countries.  Few other series have that kind of international presence, and those that do are mostly "feeder" series that drivers compete in before going to F1.  Le Mans has plenty of history and international competition, it's probably the closest thing out there to having the prestige worldwide that F1 does, but fundamentally it's one race a year (granted, a long race), it's always in France, and attempts to build endurance series based off it have not delivered the kind of success with viewers that F1 does.  The Indy 500 has more history than any of the others, but it's just an American thing.

I think part of it is probably the F1 format -- a 90-120 minute race every couple weeks is a lot easier to digest as a viewer than 4, 6, or 24 hour endurance monstrosities.  I think this is also what hurts WRC, it's just hard to watch rally on TV because it's spread out over a huge area and "competing against the clock" is a lot less visceral than seeing the race leaders in the same camera shot.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/8/24 6:47 p.m.

I don't have any insight into how the LMP regulations came about and how much negotiation there might have been, but even when Audi was dominant they didn't always have it easy and the sheer variety of the machinery was the best part. The fact that Nissan could even show up with the front engined, FWD GT-R LM showed just possible it was to come up with a radically different design. Sure, they got their butts kicked, but it still works as an example :) The racing is usually also pretty darn good.

I find 24 racing enthralling, I can't walk away. Sure, you can't keep track without a bunch of data but invariably there's some dogfight going on at 3 am in the back of the pack, and the sheer grit it takes to keep some of those cars alive is amazing. WRC did pretty well around Y2K when Speedvision was showing the Eurosport recaps, IIRC they'd do one each day so you could sorta follow the race and they're so dynamic to watch I never missed the lack of head to head competition. But F1 is a lot more like normal sporting events, where you can sit in front of the TV for 2 hours on Sunday and that's all you really need to do.

I think part of what makes F1 the pinnacle is that it's the fastest. Sure, the cars wouldn't survive Le Mans but they're still quicker than anything else around a road course. As long as Porsche doesn't play with the 919 Evo again :)

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/9/24 12:49 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

I was thinking about why I feel the annual need to complain about F1; to "yuck others' yum" as some would say, though I kinda hate that phrase. I don't like to just complain for the sake of complaining. I think it's because the crux is that I care about motorsport whether I want to or not, GRM is the place where I talk to people whose opinions I respect, *especially* about motorsport (obvs.), and I feel let down by F1.

I disagree with the implicit assertion that there needs to be some other obvious pinnacle right now in order to say F1 shouldn't be regarded as such, or at least is badly flawed. F1 is regarded as the current pinnacle because "history," FIA, and rolled into that the attention, advertising dollars, and subsequent ability to do whatever they're going to do with the most resources. And that means they do have the best people working on the fastest cars. Is that the pinnacle by definition? Reasonable people may disagree, I think.

DRS is, IMHO, *very* much different and very much contrived compared to other BOP measures. It doesn't say "we need an improvement in parity between these two cars." It says "whoever's behind at X location under Y conditions gets a leg up." That has nothing to do with balancing the performance of two specific cars based on their performances, it's just a substitute for cars that can actually race head to head, though I am aware that the relatively recent big rule changes did improve the passing substantially, though that improvement appears to be eroding and it never was very good, it just got markedly less terrible.

MotoGP does have aero (it even has ground effect in the last year or so, with fairings that actively pull the bike into the ground at full lean), and it's causing a lot of problems, from front tires that overheat, gain pressure, and stop working if you're trying to chase someone down to (look for the ring of familiarity) difficulty passing because when you get close your braking goes away as your wings run into dirty air. I don't think it's viable to ban aero, but in both cases (and so many other classes) you've got vehicles whose capabilities are more heavily defined by how they move through the air than over the ground. The suspensions are more about keeping the aero package at the right orientation than keeping the tires oriented in relation to and in contact with the pavement. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle, but I suspect as long as there are front wings, passing is going to be a problem.

I compare F1 to WWE because they prioritize the entertainment over the actual racing, though to be clear I don't think it's scripted (though I do think the FIA is not as neutral as should obviously be the case). In a terrible circular tangle, the entertainment pays for the amazing levels of talent that go into engineering and driving these things. Because being the pinnacle of motorsport is so resource-intensive, nothing can compete with F1 in terms of talent and depth without F1's budget. WRC is a great combo of engineering and driving, but there's no passing; similar for Pikes Peak. GTP/LMP or even the pinnacle of DTM I think could be better racing with more interesting cars than F1, but you have to imagine having the resources of current F1 working on those platforms.

Curious to see how the 2026 rule changes impact things. Lower drag == less downforce? Smaller cars == more room to get around? I still suspect that front wings == cars that don't work when they're close to other cars. It wasn't always as much the case in the early aero days of course; I suspect decades of getting much better at aero have simply moved the emphasis further and further that direction, and unless someone can come up with a clever way of "un-dirtying" the air you're arriving into or making downforce out of turbulence, the only way to allow cars to get close without losing capability is to reduce the emphasis on wings.

Great discussion above.   I enjoy it all.  I unfortunately having been involved in IMSA racing understand the financial costs that caused BOP to exist to try to keep field sizes up and not just a one brand show.

We old-timers remember when there was more "unlimited" racing.  Sadly it is not possible today.  The closest we get are events such as Pikes Peak.

I think 24 hour races are better tests because of weather, endurance, and night racing, etc.  except I think it would be more real if they didn't artifically light the courses.  (I remember the 60s and 70s at Sebring and Daytona).

All said, still a F1 fan.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/9/24 3:28 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

You could have watched an entire race from last season in the time it took you to write all that, and it probably would have changed your mind.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/9/24 5:01 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Dude, I tried. I watched a bunch of highlights and some qualifying. I actually like the qualifying best because the lack of passing wasn't relevant. None of it made me want to invest the time needed to watch a full race, and I wanted to want that.

MiniDave
MiniDave HalfDork
1/9/24 5:11 p.m.

Lack of passing? At almost every track this year there was a ton of passing, just little to none of it for the lead. Still fun to watch IMHO.

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
1/9/24 5:25 p.m.

A little late now, but Las Vegas was one of the most entertaining races F1 has had in a long time.  IIRC, the most passes in a race since 2012.  

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/9/24 9:05 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

Using the words "not pinnacle" does mean that there's a comparison to something else that is equal or better.  If you are not trying to compare it to something else, you may want to use different words.  Still having issues making it a competitive sport is probably more appropriate to what you are trying to say.

DRS and BOP is htere to make it more "interesting"- that's why they are there.  Sure, they do different things, specifically, but they are there to make it more competitive and interesting.  Moto GP's aero is light enough to let them race right next to each other and be in the drag window in the middle of a corner- which is as good as not having any aero- as far as I'm concerned.  How to fix that is a real problem- the new rules were supposed to address that, and it was supposed to phase out DRS over the next few seasons.  Clearly that isn't working- as teams are figuring out how to spray out the drag wash to make following hard again.  Given that the brakes are always 100% perfect, I think another thing they can do is get rid of the carbon brakes in favor of iron ones so that they have to manage the brakes as much as the tires.  But you can attack for a corner or two and out break someone.  

They have tried smaller cars with smaller wings.  Didn't do much.

Sorry that I'm kind of calling you out, but not many people are suggesting any ideas to fix the problems they complain about.  At least Keith is consistent in calling for closed chassis and covering the wheels.  I don't really see it making the racing any better, though.  

So far, the  best thing they have done to get tight racing back was to have the downforce be far more under car and far less front and rear wing for equal speeds.  The "smaller" 2026 cars are probably more about the less complex powertrain.  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/9/24 11:04 p.m.
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) said:

Great discussion above.   I enjoy it all.  I unfortunately having been involved in IMSA racing understand the financial costs that caused BOP to exist to try to keep field sizes up and not just a one brand show.

We old-timers remember when there was more "unlimited" racing.  Sadly it is not possible today.  The closest we get are events such as Pikes Peak.

I think 24 hour races are better tests because of weather, endurance, and night racing, etc.  except I think it would be more real if they didn't artifically light the courses.  (I remember the 60s and 70s at Sebring and Daytona).

All said, still a F1 fan.

About "unlimited" racing - that doesn't usually end up with good racing and never really has. Can-Am was the poster child for that and it was invariably dominated by one team or another - and suffered massive reliability problems to boot. 

And yes, the Vegas race was a riot. 

Keith,   I totally agree about the old unlimited racing.   Your point about Can-Am is correct.  I'm thinking Donohue in the Sunoco Porsche...  Gurney's Toyota that ended IMSA GTP.    I think we were so entralled back then because they were pushing the limits.  But, it wasn't "competitive".  In so many cases the winner was one who was still running.  And, safety was an after-thought.

I am amazed in current F1 by how close the field for the most part really is.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/10/24 9:21 a.m.
Jesse Ransom said:

In reply to maschinenbau :

Dude, I tried. I watched a bunch of highlights and some qualifying. I actually like the qualifying best because the lack of passing wasn't relevant. None of it made me want to invest the time needed to watch a full race, and I wanted to want that.

Sounds like you haven't watched a full race in at least a year. Maybe give it an actual try so you can write paragraphs from experience. Highlights for anything are boring out of context. 

loosecannon
loosecannon SuperDork
1/10/24 9:53 a.m.

Have we all made our annual predictions for the season? I predict that Max will win all but one race, Lewis will win the one race through a lot of skill and just a little luck, Piastri and Norris are going to have some unfriendly on track action as will Lewis and George, Perez is going to drive like he's broken, Albon will drive the Williams further up the order than it deserves, Ocon and Gasley are going to almost disappear from the TV coverage, Ricciardo is going to shine brighter than Tsunoda, Fernando is going to dominate Stroll, Leclerc will shine in Quali but fade in the races, Sainz will have a stronger 2024 than 2023 and Haas and Sauber are going to just sit at the back.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/10/24 10:07 a.m.

I predict Perez will do much better this year. He showed great improvement at the end of 23, so maybe he is getting used to the driving style required of the car. I doubt Ric will do much better than Tsunoda, if at all. Most over-hyped driver on the grid in my opinion, which I hate to say because he's such a likeable person. Mercedes will close the gap but probably still not be on the same level. Piastri and Norris have some of the most careful and respectable racecraft on the grid in my opinion, especially surprising for the young rookie, who are usually hot-headed and aggressive (remembering Max's early seasons). I think Williams is rising and Alpine is falling. Ferrari is such a wild card I have no idea.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/10/24 11:37 a.m.

I'm hoping Mercedes levels up enough to give the team a few wins. I think the Red Bull domination will continue until the next big technical change, as there's just not that much the other teams can do with the restrictions. The big reason Red Bull caught up to Mercedes in 2021 was a rule change that seemed to be aimed specifically at the "low rake" Mercedes design.

It will be interesting to see the continuing battle between the Mercedes teammates. Lewis is able to outperform George in races - you can call it luck a few times, but if it's happening consistently it has to be something else. I think Perez is going to continue to show wildly inconsistent form. He started 2023 off pretty solidly, so he was on top of the car from the start. I'm rooting for Norris to spoil a few parties and hopefully take a win. No comments on Ferrari :)

trigun7469
trigun7469 UltraDork
1/10/24 12:13 p.m.

Steiner out at Haas as Komatsu takes over as team principal Did know he was on the chopping block

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/10/24 12:20 p.m.
trigun7469 said:

Steiner out at Haas as Komatsu takes over as team principal Did know he was on the chopping block

That's nuts!!

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/10/24 1:32 p.m.
trigun7469 said:

Steiner out at Haas as Komatsu takes over as team principal Did know he was on the chopping block

Personally, that's a few seasons too late.  But we will see if this makes the team better or if it makes the team "Andretti."

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/10/24 1:46 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

In an attempt to stop clogging up this thread with my grousing, I replied re: pinnacle/BOP/etc in another thread which will hopefully die quickly. I was just trying to not ignore your direct question while also not derailing actual F1 2024 discussion further.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/forking-my-grousing-out-of-the-f1-2024-thread-worth-ignoring/261332/page1/

tarach
tarach New Reader
1/10/24 1:47 p.m.

In reply to trigun7469 :

I hope Komatsu would be able to produce better results in 2024 than Steiner managed in 2023.

Region_Rat
Region_Rat New Reader
1/10/24 1:49 p.m.

Steiner is very likable and and great "character" but the results just kept getting worse, I would agree this should have happened several seasons ago.   The timing seems interesting as well...

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
1/10/24 1:49 p.m.

Some grumblings that Haas sponsors may be upset about Guenther's ouster.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/guenther-steiners-sudden-haas-f1-departure-could-spell-money-trouble

He may not have been a great team principal, but he definitely was entertaining..

 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/10/24 2:37 p.m.

Gene Haas is hinting that he made the change because Komatsu is more engineering-oriented, whereas Guenther was more business-oriented. I'm not sure about that. Seems to me that being a team principal is more about leadership and sponsor dealings than technical knowledge. Which doesn't mean that Guenther was the right guy, I'm just not sure I agree with the logic.

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