Formula One - 2018

Could be. I suspect he'll take the wingman role for at least one race and support Bottas, especially after what happened last week. I think he'll probably pick up at least one win simply because he's a very fast driver in a very fast car, but the pressure will be off. He's peaking at just the right time this season - again. That's a guy who has his head in the right place.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

IMHO, if Lewis wraps it up in Texas, he won't win the rest of the season.  When you hear the kind of focus it takes to run at this level, I get the idea that a small relief like winning the WC would take some of that focus off.  It's happened before...  And if he does, hopefully Valteri will step in and win one.

100% agreed.  Just like in 2015.  LCH wrapped up the title in Austin that year.  Up to and including Austin LCH had won ten races to Nico's three.  Lewis then backed off (while claiming not too) but suddenly finished second to Nico in the last three races.  As a side note, the confidence those three on the trot wins gave to Nico propelled him into 2016 where he then went on to win the first four races, seven on the trot.  Lewis didn't win until the 5th round and never fully recovered.  I don't think that will happen next year with either Bottas or Vettle as I think Lewis is now absolutely at the top of his game.  

Sorry, but I think the Seb/Max thing is 100% Seb's fault for several reasons.

1st.  It was Max he was up against.  Not Lewis or someone with a shot at the championship where points would be more important to the, but Max who is guaranteed to fight hard hard hard right up to the ragged edge (and beyond) of the rules or accepted behavior.  But this time, I think Max was fair.  He left room, not a lot but certainly room.

2nd.  Seb's lunge was super late, as in  past Honey Badger late.  I think he was just overly optimistic.  

3rd.  He was driving a Ferrari with admittedly more power than the Renault lump in the Pink cow.  He was about to come into a DRS zone where he could have just steamed past Max.

4th.  This wasn't a last lap, or late race do or die moment.  It was relatively early with clear road ahead.  There were certainly going to be chances.

Nope, overall Seb just screwed the pooch again.

Oh, and while the top three teams, top six drivers aren't as close as we'd like.  The battle for the 'class B' teams is epic.  There was some great racing (again) with some awesome passing (again) in the mid field.  People keep bitching about F1, but the on track action has been great this year.

Agreed, there was some fantastic stuff happening at the bottom half of the points.

Keith Tanner said:

Agreed, there was some fantastic stuff happening at the bottom half of the points.

Yeah, if we discount the top three teams and create an imaginary class B, then it could be said we've had the following class B 'winners' this season:

Hulkenberg 3

Magnussen 3

Perez 3

Gasly 2

Ocon 2

Alonso 2

Grosjean 1

LeClerc 1

Ferrari had another fumbling race.  

Adrian_Thompson said:

Oh, and while the top three teams, top six drivers aren't as close as we'd like.  The battle for the 'class B' teams is epic.  There was some great racing (again) with some awesome passing (again) in the mid field.  People keep bitching about F1, but the on track action has been great this year.

And more importantly, the race directors actually show it to us now.  20 years ago you'd be staring at Mika or Schumacher leading the race without a single other car in frame for lap after lap while all this other stuff was going on further back that they didn't show you.

Historically the USGP is Hamilton's best race -- he's won every race there he's entered except for 2013, including the final one at Indy back in 2007.

Adrian_Thompson said:

Keith Tanner said:

Agreed, there was some fantastic stuff happening at the bottom half of the points.

Yeah, if we discount the top three teams and create an imaginary class B, then it could be said we've had the following class B 'winners' this season:

Hulkenberg 3

Magnussen 3

Perez 3

Gasly 2

Ocon 2

Alonso 2

Grosjean 1

LeClerc 1

 

 

Bonus points if you figure out the B championship standings assuming 25 points for first, etc.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

IMHO, if Lewis wraps it up in Texas, he won't win the rest of the season.  When you hear the kind of focus it takes to run at this level, I get the idea that a small relief like winning the WC would take some of that focus off.  It's happened before...  And if he does, hopefully Valteri will step in and win one.

Totally agree.  Maybe not "Won't" win, but he admits, if the pressure isn't there, he doesn't have the edge.  He lives on that E36 M3.

Edit: Shortly after I posted, it occurred to me- Valteri isn't out of the running for second place in the drivers standings.  Would Merc put the "Wingman" role on Lewis, hoping that Seb keeps screwing up and Merc can end up one-two drivers?  Its a long shot, but Seb and the dancing donkey boys have screwed the pooch for the last half dozen races to the tune of, what- 90 points?  I can't quickly find a chart showing how far Seb was ahead of Lewis earlier in the season.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

You are 100% right- Valteri is closer to Seb than Seb is to Lewis (57 and 68 repsectively).  Here's an interesting thought- if Seb is having another bad day in Austin- finishing 6th like in Japan, Lewis could let Valteri win, which would STILL result in Lewis winning the WC, and it would close the gap to Seb to 40 points with 3 to go.  It would take some work, but it's still possible for Valteri to get 2nd.  That would be really something, and surely would lead to some serious bloodletting at Ferrari at the end of the season.

Keith Tanner said:

Bonus points if you figure out the B championship standings assuming 25 points for first, etc.

Ugh, OK you win.  I donated my lunch hour to doing it.  Here you are.  Positions are rated by points.  Note.  If you average finishing positions not points you get a different order.  I can post that as well if you want.

To help make it clear I've attempted to show 1st (25 points) as gold, 2nd (18 points) as silver and 3rd (15 points) as Bronze.  Or at least as close as Excel can get me.  

So, please note this shows Class B results as:

1st - Hulkenburg 193 

2nd - Perez 187

3rd - Ocon 186

4th - Sainz 184

5th - Magnussen 177

6th - Alonso 156

Where the actual points are:

1st - (actually 7th) Perez 53

2nd - (actually 8th) Magnussen 53

3rd - (actually 9th) Hulkenburg 53

4th - (actually 10th) Alonso 50

5th - (actually 11th) Ocon 49

6th - (actually 12th) Sainz 39

Remember I said ;points were different to finishing order?  Well to show that here is the list by average finishing order (again assuming the top six weren't in the race)

1st - Sainz 5.06

2nd - Perez 5.53

3rd - Ocon 5.82

4th - Magnussen 5.94b

5th - Hulkenburg 6.29

6th - Alonso 6.76

Any more trivia you want? If so please wait for tomorrow lunch time.

Wow, I didn't think you'd actually do it :) But thanks, that's really cool.

Maybe next year we should have a megathread that tracks the Formula B Championship race by race, pretending the Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull teams don't even exist. Then we can celebrate Alonso's six podium finishes and the fact that the top four drivers are separated by only nine points! Hulkenburg has really fallen off of late, and this makes it even more of a shame that Ocon doesn't have a seat for 2019 as he's solidly in the hunt for the driver's championship.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You didn't?  By now, we know Adrian is the biggest F1 Nerd around here.  

Pretty soon, he'll come up with a method to equalize the different championship periods, so that the argument between Nuvolare, Fangio, Schumacher, Prost, and Senna can be settled once and for all. or he will find that Hamilton needs to be added to it.... ;)  

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Do you remember when there really was a class B? 

Through the 80's the turbo engines rapidly eclipsed the NA engines to the point that by 1986 even the last Cosworth stalwart Ken Tyrrell had moved to Renault Turbo power.  To reign in the rapidly escalating power the FIA decided to replace the 1.5L Turbo's with cheaper, lower power 3.5L NA engines, up from 3.0L for the old NA engines. 

There was to be a two year phase in period.  1987 when although the turbo's would have less boost they were still expected to be ahead of the NA engines.  Then for 1988 the turbo engines would be so severely hobbled the FIA expected the NA and turbo engines to be basically equal.  Well things didn't work out as planned.  We all know how 1988 worked.  If it hadn't been for for Jean-Lois Schlesser (standing in for a sick Nigel Mansell) taking out Ayrton Senna at Monza and gifting Gerhard Berger in the Ferrari a very popular win, it would have been a 16 out of 16 grand slam for the (greatest race car of all tim IMHO) McLaren MP4/4.  That final iteration of the Honda Turbo engine basically demolished everything else in it's path.  The Ferrari turbo was also still faster than the NA engines, but the constructors championship showed the real truth.  Mclaren won with 199 pts, Ferrari were second with 65 points then Benetton (previously Tolemen, then Renault, then Lotus and now Renault again!!!) were third, only 26 points behind Ferrari on 39 points.

Anyway, back to 1987.  There really was a class B.  A second championship within a championship for the new 3.5L NA engines.  This was scored separately with the Drivers Championship being  called the 'Jim Clark Trophy' and the Constructors being called the 'Colin Chapman Trophy'  This was entered by Tyrrell, Lola, AGS, MArch and Coloni.  

Jonathan Palmer, father of the much maligned recent F1 driver come commentator Joylen Palmer, handily won with seven 'victories' in the Tyrrell on 95 points with his team mate Philippe Streiff second with four 'wins' and 74 points. Third was another Philippe, Philippe Alliot in a Lola with three wins on 43 points.  Note all this is on the old 9,6,4,3,2,1 points system for 1st - 6th only.

Interestingly enough the NA teams were also scored in the regular championship.  Tyrrell finished 6th beating Arrows Megatron, Brabham BMW, Zakspeed, Ligier Megatron, Minardi - Motori Minardi, and finally Osella-Alfa Rome all with Turbo power.  In the drivers championship Palma finished a very respectable 11th overall out of 32 drivers who entered and 21 of who scored points.

That's the end of todays history lessons boys and girls.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You didn't?  By now, we know Adrian is the biggest F1 Nerd around here.  

Pretty soon, he'll come up with a method to equalize the different championship periods, so that the argument between Nuvolare, Fangio, Schumacher, Prost, and Senna can be settled once and for all. or he will find that Hamilton needs to be added to it.... ;)  

LOL, no surprise I've done it in the past.  I'll dig around tomorrow and see if I can find it and update it.  It's a few years old.  I did it when we had the stupid double points for the season ender and we were all worried there would be a tainted champion if Nico beat Lewis to the title.  thankfully that didn't happen.  The other reason I did it was too see if the new 25 - 18 - 15 etc. points spread would have changed any championship standings.  I want to say it didn't going all the way back to 1950.

P.S.  I still consider Suzuka and the Hungaroring to be 'new' adds to the calendar!!!

I had him pegged as an F1...err...enthusiast but taking your lunch to chug through a spreadsheet to come up with what is still fundamentally pointless information for the amusement of a forum is still above and beyond.

So what do we call the B championship trophies now? Still Clark and Chapman? Good names for the trophies there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Formula1Point5/ is what you guys are looking for.  There's a subreddit for everything (but none of it touches GRM).

Adam

That's fantastic, thank you very much.

It's interesting that there are two drivers dropping down from Formula 1 to Formula 1.5 next year, that's not common at all.

I'll have to go and have a look at that sub-reddthingy.  Never had much luck navigating colorrit so never spent much time there unless people send me lunks.

Anyway.  Yesterday I claimed to have looked at the different point systems over the years.  Well my memory was wrong.  what I actually did was look at just the 2010 Championship using all the points systems over the years.

The differnt points systems used are

The 2010 season with all the various points systems used over time.

The good news is the WDC would have been the same with all years scoring system, although if you look down some of the lower places change around.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Thank you kind sir. That is great information. I was think all the points changes were just to allow marketing guys say our driver scored "some number greater than zero." Saying zero probably makes getting sponsors tough.

I am most surprised to see Hulkenburg so high in the class B points. Wow. Renault somehow should show better in the points than they are. I guess he has just had lots of bad luck. I guess if they can close up to the other factory teams then Ricciardo made a good choice. 

Ocon and Perez just neck and neck. 

alfadriver said:

Pretty soon, he'll come up with a method to equalize the different championship periods, so that the argument between Nuvolare, Fangio, Schumacher, Prost, and Senna can be settled once and for all. or he will find that Hamilton needs to be added to it.... ;)  

Some other nerd has already solved that:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/who-was-the-greatest-f1-driver/amp/

I expect the results of the last four years would have a pretty big effect on the rankings for Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg and Kimi.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Also to prove you can't really compare different eras and cars, two of my favorites are way higher up the list than I belive they should be.  James Hunt in 6th ahead of Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc and Keke Rosberg in ahead of JPM, Jaques Villeneuve, both Hill's and Mansell.  Great list, great work and I need to actually read it in depth, but it shows there's the old adage 'lies, damn lies and statistics'

I wonder why the Stroll move to Racing Point hasn't been announced? 

Sponsors in conflict?

Williams looking for money? 

I am utterly shocked that Williams took Russel (edit), if they take Ocon, their performance should be much better then this year.