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wspohn
wspohn Reader
7/13/13 10:58 p.m.

One the one hand I was pleased to see a short article on the GM sports car project (know in house as the Kappa platform) in the latest issue of GR.

OTOH, on reading it, while the facts were fairly accurate (a few mistakes - the cars never had a 6 speed gearbox, they made 286 GXP coupes with manual trans, not 226.

But the article was clearly a regurgitated synthesis taken from other articles and there was little first hand knowledge of the models. Steering feel was cited as a principal source of customer dissatisfaction. It isn't - maybe 1% of owners (myself included) don't care for the loss of feel a power rack entails - the vast majority couldn't care less.

The GXP 260 BHP engine was described as lacking finesse "to control the engine power band". What does that even mean?? Clearly the author has never driven one. The torque curve of the LNF is artificially controlled to give a flat torque curve from 2000 - 5000, so control isn't exactly an issue.

It would be really, really nice, if they could get an author that has actually experienced the cars when they want space filler, rather than just recycling statistics and other people's opinions.

FWIW, one of the fairly rare manual trans GXP coupes is part of my fleet, so I DO have personal experience with these cars.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UltraDork
7/14/13 7:49 a.m.
wspohn wrote: The GXP 260 BHP engine was described as lacking finesse "to control the engine power band".

If a car isn't trying to kill me, it clearly isn't at the point of "too much power too early".

So I don't know what they are kvetching about either.

mblommel
mblommel GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/14/13 10:02 a.m.

In reply to wspohn:

I read that article and it made me want to cross the Solstice off my "might own someday" list. It seems like the ingredients for a great sports car are there, but as with the Fiero, my impression is the details were fumbled. I've heard that the suspension can be improved dramatically with some simple tuning changes to get rid of the stock litigation protection understeer. Now that the base Solstices are getting into the interesting less than $10K price range it would be great to get more details on these.

I'd like to put one back on my bucket list.

patgizz
patgizz GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/14/13 10:07 a.m.

I've got a sky redline waiting for me, on the hopeful day that the mother in law gets sick of having a nice weather only car. i've only seen it out of the garage for a couple weeks this year because of all the rain.

theenico
theenico New Reader
7/14/13 10:12 a.m.

I always wondered how many GXP coupes were made with the Z0K package. I'll bet that's a fairly rare beast.

wspohn
wspohn Reader
7/14/13 12:00 p.m.

The stock Solstice, like any car, is a compromise crafted by the marketing arm so as to suit the maximum number of consumers. That means that fanatical driving enthusiast like me will find them to be a bit too soft and usually to have a little too much understeer at the limit, but if they'd set the cars up to suit us, all the little old ladies (and I include many reviewers in that) would have cpmplained that they were too stiff etc.

The easy solution is to add readily available after market and factory parts that accomplish tuning the suspension to suit yourself. I bought the car, but before I took delivery, I had already ordered the factory upgrade to send the power from 260 to 290 BHP and the TQ from 260 ft-lbs to 340 ft-lbs.

I drove the car a lot in the first couple of weeks of ownership in order to decide just what I wanted to do to the suspension (I have lots of experience in setting up race cars) and then added heavier factory sway bars front and rear (part of the mentioned ZOK kit - nothing magical about having had the car special ordered with those parts, BTW as anyone can add them later). I added 3 different parts that all seve to add torsinal stiffness to the chassis, and a set of adjustable race struts with stiffer springs and then left well enough alone, being very pleased with the results. Mild undesteer easily countered with power.

The traction control and Stabilitrak controls on the modern GM cars are very, very good, and unlike some cars, are also defeatable - either to go to competition mode (no traction and reduced stability control inputs) or to turn them off completely fro track use. Which is why the cars won T2 a couple of years running - they make very good solo competitors.

They make an excellent enthusiast car but like mblommel said, that sure doesn't come through in the article.

The Fiero was different - they went cheap on the suspenions just to talk GM into allowing production - Citation front cradle moved to the back and Chevette suspension up front in 1984. Finally in 1988 they went to a commpletely different suspension,the one they should have had to start with. I still own an 88 Fiero and also owned an 87 (old suspension style) at the same time so I can say from experience that the 88 was far superior.

There was no bodging like that with the Solstice. They simply set quite sensible suspension settings and left it to the after market, or their own parts easily available foor the purpose, to serve the relatively few owners that would want to go that way.

Where I feel they did sort of blow it was with the power. All the magazine comparison tests found the GXP to be comparable in performance with the peer group they tested them against and conclusions vared depending on the other cars in the tests. Had GM released the GMPP tune that kicked it up to 290/340 as mentioned above, the cars would have cleaned up in the performance category on all the tests and that might have been very beneficial to sales.

Nonetheless, the handling is good, and the engine is a small (2 litre) marvel, the highest specific output engine ever produced by GM, and with after market tinkering, you can get around 400 BHP before you have to start going into the inside of the engines to strengthen various components. Getting, say,350 BHP and th torque of a small V8 with minimal work, plus gas mileage of 28+ mpg is a rather nice combination.

No one should dismiss these cars as possible purchases without driving them, and certainly not on the basis of a recycled article with some facts but a fair bit of inaccuracy. It is the first American vehicle in 20 years I'd want to own, an I say that as a die hard British car owner.

2.0dohc
2.0dohc Reader
7/14/13 12:33 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
wspohn wrote: So I don't know what they are kvetching about either.
completely off topic, but by chance do you read the air force times?
carguy123
carguy123 UltimaDork
7/14/13 1:38 p.m.

And yet if you went by autocrossers in my area you'd never even know the Sky/Solstice existed.

I can't say that I've ever personally witnessed one on an autocross course or a track.

Wait! I take that back! When they first came out I saw 2 autocrossing and either the drivers or the cars looked like crap and I've never seen another.

wspohn
wspohn Reader
7/14/13 2:33 p.m.

Like the Fieros (which, it should be noted, do not have a stitch of metal bodywork to rust away) I never see any Solstices on the street around here. No idea where they hang out, but thenn they didn't make all that many in the first place. Not sure who is still racing or slaloming them these days. They won several SCCA championships as late as 2008.

Here is a fun clip I had all but forgotten about, also, ironically, from GRM - but much more fun.

http://www.streetfire.net/video/2009-pontiac-solstice-review_706816.htm

subrew
subrew Reader
7/14/13 3:17 p.m.
wspohn wrote: But the article was clearly a regurgitated synthesis taken from other articles and there was little first hand knowledge of the models.

Agreed. The latest issue didn't even take 5 minutes to flip through. They are really suffering from a lack of Per.

skierd
skierd Dork
7/14/13 7:10 p.m.

The biggest problem for the Solstice/Sky was the fact that the Miata already existed. Had there not been a pretty well put together, great handling, mildly powered, mostly lightweight sports car with a well thought out top and interior layout already on the market, people would have bought the Solstice kool-aid no problem. It was the last gasp of standard GM thinking... take a bunch of corporate engineered parts, slap it together into a semi-coherent package, and hope it all mostly works together. The horrid top arrangement, complete lack of trunk space with the roof down, and center console arrangement were killers imo. Otherwise they were and are very nice to drive fun cars.

belteshazzar
belteshazzar UberDork
7/14/13 8:02 p.m.

i wouldnt trade my 94 miata even up for the N/A Sky i test drove back when they were new. it looked cool./compliments

the car felt twice its actual size, and lacked an indefinable something. idk, personality? and count me among the 1 percent unsatisfied with the steering feel.

DaveEstey
DaveEstey UltraDork
7/14/13 8:42 p.m.

I've autocrossed a GXP several times and found it to be a complete hoot. Yes, it wants to kill you a bit in autocross, but that's the fun of it. Last time I drove it I ran a faster raw time than an S2K on purple crack, and he's not a crap driver. I was on Bridgestone RE-11s. These are VERY capable cars when setup correctly.

I'd totally own one, but not an N/A version.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/14/13 9:06 p.m.

Buyers guides tend to be written by outsiders rather than GRM regulars. In other words, a marque expert or model otaku. If you have excessive knowledge about a particular car that should be interesting to the GRM reader base, go ahead and pitch your idea to David. Deliver a good article and it's a good way to get your foot in the door as well.

In the case of this article, they may not have been able to find anyone with the requisite level of knowledge to spot the error in the number of manual transmission coupes made.

Wasn't the steering feel one of the gripes about the car in the enthusiast press when new? It's obviously not something that's going to show up in owner forums for the cars, as they tend to be a little less critical than people who tried the car and decided NOT to buy one. I've never driven a Solstice myself, so I can't say anything based on personal experience.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 SuperDork
7/14/13 9:46 p.m.

My gripe with the article is I can't find any on craigslist in my area. Searches reaching further out they are very expensive still and not in GRM pricing yet.

mblommel
mblommel GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/15/13 8:45 a.m.

In reply to DirtyBird222:

Aren't you in Orlando too?

This one seemed pretty well priced: http://orlando.craigslist.org/ctd/3932537255.html

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/15/13 9:03 a.m.

The biggest problem with the Solstice is that the Miata already existed.

And there's some Volvo 240 stuff in the issue that's currently at the printer.

mtn
mtn UltimaDork
7/15/13 9:38 a.m.
David S. Wallens wrote: The biggest problem with the Solstice is that the Miata already existed.

I'd say that the biggest problem is that the Miata is useable as a DD, whereas the Skystice can't even take a duffel bag with the top down. Why is it that Mazda, BMW, Honda, Chrsyler, Mercedes Benz, etc. able to design a top that doesn't take up the entire trunk and GM can't?

I realize that like the Miata, most of them were never going to be used every day or even close to it. But you can't even take this car to the golf course or on a weekend getaway.

GXP_Matt
GXP_Matt
7/15/13 9:54 a.m.

I was very impressed with the recent Escort ZX2 buyer's guide article. Someone obviously did a lot of research and put some hard work into that article. I was hoping for the same treatment for the Solstice but was disappointed. No mention of how easy it is to make these cars blisteringly fast in autocross or on the track by throwing the GMPP anti-roll bars/springs and a tune at them, just that the Solstice isn't even "in the same ballpark in handling and steering precision" as the Miata, S2000, and Boxster. Really? Let's take a look at the best test of the handling and precision of a car off the factory floor- SCCA Solo Stock class. In CS, the N/A Solstice has won the class at nationals several times over the past few years against Miata MS-R's, a heavily modified version of the NC only available from Mazdaspeed for people that agree to race their Miata. CS also includes RX-8s, Boxsters, Z3's, all cars that are praised for their handling in the press but just can't seem to hang in real life. In BS, the GXPs are routinely beat by S2000's, sure, but they are the Club Race models of which only 700 were made and cost about double a GXP. Base S2000's have a hard time against the GXP/Redlines. Once you are allowed some modifications the GXPs get bumped up to ASP class where they run 315mm Hoosiers with no work in the front and a spacer in the rear and trophied last year at Nationals against a field of fully prepped AWD Evos and STIs. Also don't forget the SCCA Club Racing results. I believe Wikipedia sums it up well and drives home the point that the author didn't care to mention any positive competition results about the car:

SCCA Club Racing 2006 National Championship Runoffs the Pontiac Solstice placed first place in Showroom Stock B (SSB). SCCA Club Racing 2007 National Championship Runoffs the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2) and the Pontiac Solstice placed first place in Showroom Stock B (SSB) even after being penalized 200 lbs between the 2006 and 2007 seasons. SCCA Club Racing 2008 National Championship the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2) SCCA Club Racing 2009 National Championship the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2)

The Kappa is a very well-engineered sports car platform and it shows in actual motorsports results. Enough with regurgitating the typical bashing in the press from circa 2008 about hard plastics, parts-bin engineering, and "vague steering feel."

GXP_Matt
GXP_Matt New Reader
7/15/13 9:57 a.m.

Also I should probably mention that I own and daily drive a GXP. I also drive it 200+ miles nearly every weekend to autocrosses around the region (yes, with a duffel bag and a helmet in the car with me! gasp!)

yamaha
yamaha UberDork
7/15/13 9:58 a.m.

Sky Redlines are in fewer numbers than even the GXP solstice IIRC. Doesn't make them any less capable though. Nice cars.

wspohn
wspohn Reader
7/15/13 9:59 a.m.
mtn wrote: I'd say that the biggest problem is that the Miata is useable as a DD, whereas the Skystice can't even take a duffel bag with the top down. Why is it that Mazda, BMW, Honda, Chrsyler, Mercedes Benz, etc. able to design a top that doesn't take up the entire trunk and GM can't? I realize that like the Miata, most of them were never going to be used every day or even close to it. But you can't even take this car to the golf course or on a weekend getaway.

I agree with the criticism that there is little luggage space. OTOH, that is like saying a beauty queen in a bikini doesn't do dishes. Yeah, so......

Maybe if you think of it as a Lotus 7 (it has that sort of 'extra' space) for the 21st century it won't seem so bad....

I actually came up with a reasonable compromise with my coupe. The opening rear window is smoked glass. I just bought a black beach towel (suprisingly hard to find - guess there are few Goth beach parties?) and can put anything I like back ther, and it dissappears when you cover it with the black towel. Fits 3 cases of wine and a flat duffle. Good for weekends!

mtn
mtn UltimaDork
7/15/13 10:32 a.m.
wspohn wrote:
mtn wrote: I'd say that the biggest problem is that the Miata is useable as a DD, whereas the Skystice can't even take a duffel bag with the top down. Why is it that Mazda, BMW, Honda, Chrsyler, Mercedes Benz, etc. able to design a top that doesn't take up the entire trunk and GM can't? I realize that like the Miata, most of them were never going to be used every day or even close to it. But you can't even take this car to the golf course or on a weekend getaway.
I agree with the criticism that there is little luggage space. OTOH, that is like saying a beauty queen in a bikini doesn't do dishes. Yeah, so...... Maybe if you think of it as a Lotus 7 (it has that sort of 'extra' space) for the 21st century it won't seem so bad.... I actually came up with a reasonable compromise with my coupe. The opening rear window is smoked glass. I just bought a black beach towel (suprisingly hard to find - guess there are few Goth beach parties?) and can put anything I like back ther, and it dissappears when you cover it with the black towel. Fits 3 cases of wine and a flat duffle. Good for weekends!

Coupe does not apply to my argument. I believe I could get a hockey bag in it, so it would fit my requirements.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 SuperDork
7/15/13 7:05 p.m.
mblommel wrote: In reply to DirtyBird222: Aren't you in Orlando too? This one seemed pretty well priced: http://orlando.craigslist.org/ctd/3932537255.html

I've relocated to the Metro Washington DC area and split most of my time between there and Miami (and various other locations). There was no money to be made in Central Florida which is unfortunate because all my friends and family are there; my alma matter-which I love attending their football games; Daytona and Sebring a close; beaches and mudding are easily accessible; and no state income taxes.

I was trying to get at that there are very few available in GRM pricing up there and just hard to find in general in manual as well.

Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/16/13 8:06 a.m.

I wanted a coupe badly when the concept car came out. No other car was close. How many small 2 seat coupes are/were on the market at even close to that price? Zero. I was a bit disappointed that only the convertible was introduced. It would have been my only car and I live in the north, so no go for me. When the GXP coupe came along a couple years later, I couldn't come up with the money fast enough and then production ended

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