Hive advice for replacing SWMBO's Prius

There's no urgency to make it happen, but we're starting to gather ideas for what to replace SWMBO's 09 Prius with.  However, there just don't seem to be a whole lot of cars that meet the need. 

Basically, the criteria we're looking for are:

• Not a coupe or sedan (hatch, wagon, SUV are all fine, but I'm not sure any SUV meets the rest of the requirements)
• No smaller than a gen 2 Prius (bigger is fine)
• Decent gas mileage (doesn't need to be as good as the Prius)
• Must be faster than the Prius (I'm setting the bar at no slower than 9 seconds to 60)
• Ideally can be bought for under $20k (although no firm budget has been set at this point)

SWMBO doesn't care what the drive type is, although I personally have a distaste for FWD in winter, and I know I'll end up driving the thing here and there. 

We've found a few things so far that seem to fit the bill, some better than others, and most with some point of concern:

• MK6 Jetta TDI wagon / MK7 Golf 1.8t wagon (good choice, but I don't love DSGs and prices on these have shot way up in the last year)
• BMW F30 328d wagon (a little nervous about transfer case issues but otherwise seems like a good choice)
• 2015+ Volvo V60 wagon (just don't know enough about these)
• Audi A7 TDI (a little on the expensive side, a little large, probably a crazy choice, and while it's technically a hatchback, it's awfully close to sedan shaped, but for some reason I like it)
• Chevy Volt (SWMBO needs to take a good look at one and decide if it's big enough)

I feel like there has to be something we're missing, or something that points to one option over the others.  And a lot of options have been ruled out because they just don't get good enough gas mileage.  What say you guys? 

Can you get a Rav4 Hybrid at that price? 

Prius V? 

Ford C-Max (hybrid)? 

John Welsh said:

Can you get a Rav4 Hybrid at that price? 

That's definitely one to look at (and I have no idea why we never put it on the list), as SWMBO does like the one her mom recently bought.  But I'm kinda indifferent on it, and more importantly, I'm not convinced that it'll be any less of a pain in the rear for me to maintain than the Prius (which has earned the title of "most irritating car I've ever touched a wrench to")

EDIT: Just did a quick search, looks like the previous gen that gets ok-ish MPG can be had with a reasonable number of miles for $20k-ish.  The current gen that gets much better MPG is still close to $30k.  In my mind, I'd much rather pay $28k for an A7 TDI than a Rav4. The Toyota tax is pretty significant, especially on the hybrids. 

Prius V is off the table as it's no faster than her current Prius.  The C-Max is worth a look though. 

In reply to rslifkin :

Your profile says Rochester.  I have no diesel car experience but do have diesel heavy truck experience.  Do diesel cars play well in your Rochester cold climate which more than just a little cold!?  

John Welsh said:

In reply to rslifkin :

Your profile says Rochester.  I have no diesel car experience but do have diesel heavy truck experience.  Do diesel cars play well in your Rochester cold climate which more than just a little cold!?  

It does get cold here, but not cold enough for most of the modern diesels to have trouble.  In particular, I've got experience with the VW 2.0 TDI in this climate, and even at 0*, once the glow plugs cycle, they start right up (faster than a lot of gas cars at that temperature).  Plus, the car will generally be in the heated garage at home, so a cold-soaked outside overnight start will be fairly rare. 

rslifkin said:

John Welsh said:

 In my mind, I'd much rather pay $28k for an A7 TDI than a Rav4. The Toyota tax is pretty significant, especially on the hybrids. 

If you think there is ANY Toyota that is worse to maintain than an Audi, then I'm afraid for you.

The Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX was offered as a hybrid for longer than the Rav4 so you might find and older Highlander to fit in price.  But, maybe you have just cause for no Toyota love.  

Do you have strong feelings against the Korean cars?  Kia/Hyundai has many suv's in many sizes.  

I did look at the Highlander / RX hybrids, but the MPG just isn't there (at least for the 2015-ish ones, they're under 30 on the highway).  In general, I don't have a lot of love for Toyota, but I don't necessarily dislike them.  I do feel that for a lot of their vehicles, they suffer massive price inflation and aren't necessarily worth buying at the prices people want to sell them for.  Plus, most of the ones I've worked on over time have been somewhat of a pain, and at least for the modern Toyotas (mid 2000s and up) I don't exactly get the impression that they're all that well engineered or all that durable (even if they're "reliable"). 

The Korean options are definitely worth a look, we just haven't seen one that jumped out at us in the bit of searching we've done so far.  But I'm definitely open to suggestions in that department. 

Realistically, I'm leaning more towards hatch / wagon because of MPG.  SWMBO wouldn't mind an SUV in concept, but most of the ones that are big enough also get bad enough mpg that she wouldn't want it (the newer Rav4 hybrids being an exception there). 

In reply to rslifkin :

Are Tesla's down in that range yet ?  

A real outlier... Chevy Equinox Diesel.  They offered the Cruise and the Equinox in Diesel.  This article says 34-40mpg and though not all about speed it seems to really win on torque.  Pretty new (2018) so expect price to be high.  

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a14498494/2018-chevrolet-equinox-diesel-awd-test-review/

John Welsh said:

A real outlier... Chevy Equinox Diesel.  They offered the Cruise and the Equinox in Diesel.  This article says 34-40mpg and though not all about speed it seems to really win on torque.  Pretty new (2018) so expect price to be high.  

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a14498494/2018-chevrolet-equinox-diesel-awd-test-review/

The diesel Cruze hatchback did cross our minds, so I probably should have put that on the list at first.  The Cruze diesel can be had for under $20k, but the Equinox is a little more expensive (low $20k range).  These definitely need some more research on reliability, etc. as I tend to trust GM anything that's not a truck or Corvette about as far as I can throw it. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to rslifkin :

Are Tesla's down in that range yet ?  

Not that I've seen.  Although there is a 240V / 30A outlet in the garage right next to where SWMBO parks, so electric and plugin hybrid is viable, provided the range is adequate. 

In reply to rslifkin :

I overlooked the Cruise for you because I thought it might be considered too small.  If the Cruise is a viable choice then the Volt too might be a viable choice since it shares the Cruise chassis.

John Welsh said:

In reply to rslifkin :

I overlooked the Cruise for you because I thought it might be considered too small.  If the Cruise is a viable choice then the Volt too might be a viable choice since it shares the Cruise chassis.

Size-wise, both are in the "SWMBO needs to look at it to decide" range. 

rslifkin said:

• MK6 Jetta TDI wagon / MK7 Golf 1.8t wagon (good choice, but I don't love DSGs and prices on these have shot way up in the last year)

You could get these with a manual transmission if you don't want the DSG.

Although for some reason you could only get the MK 6 Jetta TDI wagon with a rather cheesy vinyl interior.

MadScientistMatt said:

rslifkin said:

• MK6 Jetta TDI wagon / MK7 Golf 1.8t wagon (good choice, but I don't love DSGs and prices on these have shot way up in the last year)

You could get these with a manual transmission if you don't want the DSG.

Although for some reason you could only get the MK 6 Jetta TDI wagon with a rather cheesy vinyl interior.

I'd personally go for the manual, but SWMBO won't.  Plus, it's not exactly the nicest manual to drive (grabby clutch and at least pre-dieselgate, the tune will just kill the engine if you dip any bit below idle speed while letting the clutch out).  I know that interior well and don't honestly mind it based on a good bit of time spend in a friend's MK6 TDI wagon (before VW bought it back). 

Curious what the problems with your Prius were?   These tend to be super reliable.  (They are a super common choice for taxis)

What does "Decent gas mileage" require?  Does a DSG GTI fit? :)

jfryjfry said:

Curious what the problems with your Prius were?   These tend to be super reliable.  (They are a super common choice for taxis)

It's not so much that it's unreliable, as a total pain to work on.  Nothing ever comes apart on it, and a lot of the parts are just a bit on the flimy and under-designed side.  And if you don't have the Toyota computer tools, you have to be very careful with things like bleeding the brakes, otherwise the car freaks out and puts the brakes into limp mode, requiring you to jumper some pins in the OBD connector to reset it.  And nothing about the car is redeeming enough to justify the pain of working on it. 

It also seems to be developing some oil consumption at this point, and front brakes don't hold up great unless you drive it like you stole it (they don't get used enough, so corrosion is an issue).  I replaced the original front pads at ~150k miles not because they were worn out, but because they were delaminating from the backing plates.  The replacements didn't last nearly as well, despite using good parts.  We'll see how set #3 holds up. 

The gen 2 Priuses also eat front wheel bearings like candy on roads with potholes, etc. (even OE Toyota bearings don't last).  I just put a new set in the thing (which is an awful job in the salt belt, as the hubs insert almost 2 inches into the knuckle, so getting them out involves removing the knuckle and basically pressing the hub out).  The last set of wheel bearings made it a little under 30k miles before producing a horrific grinding and rapidly developing play.  It's bad enough that when SWMBO's parents both had gen 2 Priuses at one point, their mechanic kept a set of front hubs in stock at all times because of how frequently they were needed. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

What does "Decent gas mileage" require?  Does a DSG GTI fit? :)

There hasn't been a hard number put to it, but I'd figure she needs to get ~30 mpg on her commute (mixed driving) and closer to 40 on the highway.  A GTI might be close there, but it's too small.  And the long Golf doesn't come in GTI form.  The 1.8t version of the Golf wagon is a contender though (and a nicer car than the previous Jetta wagon, although the mpg of the TDI would be nice). 

I think you can still find decent deals on TDI wagons. A heated garage is good to have as ours takes a while to reach operating temp and blow warm air. It'll go 500miles @ 80mph on a tank of diesel. We've had it for 3 years 25,000 miles and so far no issues.

Edit: it also handles snow really well. I think the combination of DSG, TCS programming, weight distribution, and Conti DWS is a good recipe.

If the CMax is still on the table, and you've got 240v in the right place, they made a PHEV version of it called "energi". Really, a 120 outlet is all you need to recharge over night. They're no racecar, but they do 0-60 in 8.1 so still meet your requirement. Fuel economy could easily be 50+mpg if it doesn't go on frequent, long drives. The powertrain has a lot of similarities to the Toyota hybrid system, but they skip the Toyota tax.

The downside is they're kind of small, and the battery takes up a bunch of space in the hatch. And the powertrain will put you to sleep if you're expecting excitement.

I've had a 2013 Volt (gen 1) since May of 2015. When I bought it I was working at 2 of my company's locations. I also had the daycare drop off and pickup in my commute, along with 1-2 nights of grad school classes per week.

A short day of driving for me was about 75 miles round-trip. Between level 2 chargers at work and home, that whole trip could usually be all electric, except on really cold days. 

A long day could be 150 miles. 2/3 of my trip to work was electric. 2/3 was electric between work and university. After charging up at school, the drive home was nearly always fully electric.

With the mileage check I was getting for the long drive days, free charging at work, and the lower fuel cost of electricity where I live vs. gas it was cheaper to have the Volt than the (paid off)  Mazda3 I had at the time.

Now I drive about 6 miles each way to work. I can still charge for free at work, and except weekends that's most of my charging.

Reliability has been excellent. I bought the car with 29k miles on it, and have added another 100k since. 

There were recalls early on in my ownership, and my dealer was good at getting them done quickly.

Normal older car stuff has started to happen. I had a mechanic friend replace the radiator for the engine when it started leaking. I replaced the charge port ($90 and about 30 minutes of my time). I need to get the CV axles replaced, and one of the front wheel bearings has become loud.

Oil changes are about 40k mile intervals for me, and are ridiculously ready to do.

Winter driving has been a pleasant surprise. The traction control can give very small and precise inputs of power. I've been able to climb several slippery hills with all season tires that were a chore even in my wife's AWD Renegade.

There are compromises, but if you can live with them it's a great car. 

BAMF said:

Winter driving has been a pleasant surprise. The traction control can give very small and precise inputs of power. I've been able to climb several slippery hills with all season tires that were a chore even in my wife's AWD Renegade.

That's the kind of thing that makes me happy to hear.  It's stuff like that where the Prius (at least the older one SWMBO drives) falls seriously short.  There's no reason it can't have incredible traction control (electric motor drive and 2 non-driven wheels for speed reference), yet the traction control (which can't be disabled, as the car is a base model) is as bad as a mid 90s GM and does nothing more than produce a large power cut at the first hint of wheelspin and blink the light on the dash. I think the studded Nokians are the only reason the Prius is tolerable in snow. 

rslifkin said:

BAMF said:

Winter driving has been a pleasant surprise. The traction control can give very small and precise inputs of power. I've been able to climb several slippery hills with all season tires that were a chore even in my wife's AWD Renegade.

That's the kind of thing that makes me happy to hear.  It's stuff like that where the Prius (at least the older one SWMBO drives) falls seriously short.  There's no reason it can't have incredible traction control (electric motor drive and 2 non-driven wheels for speed reference), yet the traction control (which can't be disabled, as the car is a base model) is as bad as a mid 90s GM and does nothing more than produce a large power cut at the first hint of wheelspin and blink the light on the dash. I think the studded Nokians are the only reason the Prius is tolerable in snow. 

Electric motors are really easy to control precisely with inverters. The control system just tells the inverter to drop the electric motor speed way down until it gets going. There is almost no wheel spin in slippery conditions. To your point, Toyota should have done this in the Prius. 

You can turn off traction control and stabilitrak, and doing so quickly shows how much those systems do to make the  car drive as you intend; it's extremely impressive.

Handling is better than you would expect from a FWD hatchback weighing 3,800lb.