I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

Leadership creates goals. We figure out how to hit those goals.   Sometimes we don't get 100% of the goal and the goalposts move.  Sometimes we do and we lean in and build stronger goals.  Sometimes we make mistakes and have to go backwards. But what we've learned in the process of moving the needle is generally worth it.  
 

All the while people point out the flaws in the goals or the path forward.  
 

people now talk about how difficult it is to charge an ev but how easy it is to fill a gas car.   Back in the 1910's before filling stations, you bought gasoline in one gallon cans from the local hardware store.  If they didn't have enough gas or didn't have any(and you were outside a city), you had to wait until the train came to your town to restock the store with 1 gallon cans. Filling up on cross country drives could take days as you wait for the next train to bring fuel or spare parts.   All the while, horse riders mocked those in cars.  
 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

No one is currently building infrastructure. 

BullE36 M3. I'm living it. I'm watching the travel infrastructure built every week.

As for the grid demand, what people like you fail to understand (no matter HOW many times it's explained nicely to you) is that most charging of EVs is done overnight when there is very little load on the power plants, not during peak hours of 4-9 pm. So there is already excess capacity in the grid that can be used to cover almost ALL home charging if we went to all EVs tomorrow morning. But since no one can produce and sell that many EVs overnight, and at normal production and sales levels, it will take DECADES of sales to even replace HALF the cars in the US fleet, there's MORE than enough time to add the 10-20% increase in capacity to the grid to additionally cover all EVs charging during the day. Just like we did when residential and commercial AC was added in the '70s. Just like when over 1oo terawatts of demand was added for bitcoin mining and double that for the huge regional datacenters that companies like Amazon and Google added.

Listen, I get that you don't understand what's going on around you and that change is scary. But for pete's sake, listen and learn from those who actually live it.

In reply to Chris_V :

i agree with you. It's not like we weren't going to have to upgrade the grid anyway. Population growth dictates this alone. 
 

years ago I lived through a big power outage in Connecticut. The grid was so old that most of the residential distribution wires were bare.  The insulation long since fallen off due to age and deterioration.  Tree branches blown by the wind touched the wires and transformers blew up all over the state. All at once.  The fix, trim the trees.   Maybe they shoulda replaced the wires?  I'm not an electrical engineer, so what do I know. 

Chris_V said:

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said: 11 years that ev may be needing a $2500 battery change. That changes the math yet again.

Modern thermally controlled batteries have ~2000 charge cycles before they are degraded to the point it's really noticeable (but still plenty useful for stationary storage. BTW, Teslas are showing that they lose about 10% of range from degradation in the first 5 years, then it tapers off after that, with many of the earlier versions hitting over 300k miles in taxi service). 2000 charge cycles on a car with 250 miles of range is 500,000 miles before needing a battery. By that point the car will be toast around it anyhow.

Getting tired of the fear of battery replacements out of warranty.

It's ironic that GM did the right thing by replacing all the batteries free under warranty.   Acting like a proper corporation should.  
  Yet those who are not ready to face the future distort that into the idea  that lithium  batteries are as fragile  as lead acid.  
      While nobody is forcing  people to buy  EV's  and there are still mostly ICE cars around.    Some are acting like they are on the way to the guillotine rather than being offered a chance to spend less money on transportation.   
  Even ICE devotes should welcome EV's.  The more EV's the less competition  for gasoline.   The lower the demand, prices should drop, right?  Free market and all that!   

No one is acting like they are going to be killed regarding the change to EV's. Leave the hyperbole somewhere else. 

Many, including myself, realize the current electricity and charging infrastructure isn't being built out quickly enough to coincide with how quickly many governments across the globe want to make the change. Aside from their not being enough chargers, many that aren't Tesla, are frequently non-functioning. 

One of many articles on the subject vs just making things up:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/17/23308612/ev-charging-broken-unreliable-survey-jd-power

Here's me charging my first Bolt on one of my monthly trips to eastern CT from here in Baltimore (700 miles round trip). Not an issue.

As i said, back when I got it in 2020, I couldn't drive it to my brother in law's home in Tennessee as the charging infrastructure was not built out there. By 2022, that was easy to do. Here's my wife in the new car on a trip down to her brother's home in TN last month. Lots of charging opportunities on that trip now (900 miles round trip). It's just not as bad as critics like you think it is. And it's getting better every single week.

Why do people with no experience keep arguing with those that HAVE experience? I've been studying EVs since 2006 and driving electric since 2013. You?

Because it's easier to complain or cite hysterical or misleading headlines.

I was a bit later than you, a Leaf in 2015 and the Bolt in 2019. I have nearly 100K miles on them combined. I listen to people here and in my office talk and throw words around like "compliance cars" and "city cars" and how small they are and how unusable they are and how they can't be charged. Meanwhile I left the house with a fully charged battery again this morning, drove into the city, out of that city, into another city, and out of that one, then on to work. Much of the 80 miles round trip is done at highway speeds. It's all 100% relaxing, quiet and cheap. I log my actual spending and savings every 10K miles. The lady loading the grocery drive-up order the other day commented how much room the hatch has. Today I brought a 25 gallon tank with my to work. In the few times I have wanted to charge the car away from home, it's worked, been easy, and other than one time in Atlanta, been free anyway. Mostly it's just been a nicer parking space and conversation with fellow drivers who can math.

It's pissing into the wind. The same person will gladly buy a ticking time bomb of a ICE car with with known issues, deal with current recalls for fire risk when parked over night, scream at the sky over high gas prices, but by golly they like it, and don't take the right to scream and complain away from them. Not many people are actually listening.

frenchyd said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

you dont want to buy the ev today? you're losing your mind!

For all those calling anyone not dying to own an ev right this second backwards and losing their minds: Do they make a manual trans EV that goes 400 miles per charge, is fun to drive and costs $25k? No? Than I don't want it. Come talk to me when they do.

It only costs 25k if you ignore the rest of its cost.  It's just scrap metal until you buy the fuel for it.  20 years of fuel    Is. $44,000  or about a tenth of that for an EV.

        Yes you can have whatever you want. I fought in a war to ensure that you have choices. 
 

Seriously, repeating the same lies over and over don't make them true. 

Lets do the real math that applies to me, not even considering the FACT that there is no manual trans EV which is my #1 requirement because that is obviously too hard for you to comprehend.

Here's the EV that I would purchase IGNORING THE MAIN THING I WANT IN A CAR.

Add tax, that is now $53526.75. Because of my state, that makes the license plates twice the price of the gas car for the next 10 years. They would be around $700 per year in plates compared to $350. That's $7000 more, bringing the new total to $60526

Our current elecricity rate is ~$0.11/kW. So a recharge on the car, which for my DD would be every 8 days. Not including the trips we take, that would be 45 recharges at home for $7. $315 for electricity per year if prices don't change.Over 10 years that new total is now $63673.

Lets look at the car I am purchasing. $25985. Add in taxes and now we are at 27803. $350/yr for plates at $350 pushes to  $31,303. I will average about 34mpg at $3.50/gal for the same 10k miles (ignoring the exra trips) is $1029 for fuel making the new total $41593 for 10 years. That's a $22000 difference. at the $700 year difference in fuel/electricity that will take 31 years to make up. 

Tires for the EV are $280 more per set. That's 10 oil changes, 3 per year with one left over, or about he same amount of time I'll need another set of tires. So that washes out. The "oil changes raise your cost" don't apply here. Brakes? Fine.... I'll probably need new brakes at 60-80k miles. so in 10 years I'll need $300 in brakes. OK, that changes the pay back to equal time to 30.5 years now.

OK, but if you put in solar.... well that doesn't really work either because now I'm putting out another $70k out of pocket. State program ended to help cover that cost and our electric supplier only buys back a 1/10 the rate they charge, or basically $0.01/kW. A 10kW system would just barely cover our normal usage for the necessities (well, waterheater, AC/heat, fridge, freezer). So we aren't getting anything back there. Even if it did pay our monthly bill $250/mo average that would take 23 years to pay back. 

So no. An ev is not right for everyone. Not even close and that is still ignoring my #1 problem: they don't make what I want. 

You guys are constantly misqouting and setting up strawmen. No one said they can't be charged, again, all I said was the infrastructure isn't being built out fast enough for the proposed changeover date. Then shared a couple of news stories that indicated the same. 

Pointing that out doesn't mean I'm an any way, shape or form against EVs. I looked hard at a Tesla 3 Performance, but in the end couldn't justify the price for my usage. I've put 1k miles on my current car in almost 6 months. 

Either way, I'm bowing out. You guys can keep repeating yourselves to each other ad nauseum. 

In reply to z31maniac :

Yup. Set big goals. If you miss you'll still move much farther than if you set little goals.

In reply to bobzilla :

Manual trans doesn't work in an ev it doesn't make sense. You'd be adding complexity for complexity's sake which is the opposite of why I imagine you like manual transmissions. And trust me if you drive an ev in anger you'd see that you do not need the manual for it to be fast. 
 

There's plenty of $50k gas powered cars out there too. Compare apples to apples. The $26k gas car you're buying isn't in any way comparable to the $50k suv you posted. I can compare a $26k bolt to a $50k blazer that doesn't make it a valid comparison. 

dculberson said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Manual trans doesn't work in an ev it doesn't make sense. You'd be adding complexity for complexity's sake which is the opposite of why I imagine you like manual transmissions. And trust me if you drive an ev in anger you'd see that you do not need the manual for it to be fast. 
 

There's plenty of $50k gas powered cars out there too. Compare apples to apples. The $26k gas car you're buying isn't in any way comparable to the $50k suv you posted. I can compare a $26k bolt to a $50k blazer that doesn't make it a valid comparison. 

IT'S not about fast. I race a berkeleying rio. Its about driver engagement and enjoyment. The EV's don't do i for me. Yes, Ive driven a Tesla in plaid before. it's amazing what it can do. But it's numb and sterile. These are things that are important to me for something I am going to spend 2 hours a day for the next 10+ years. 

Again, since no one seems to understand the words I actually type.... these are the vehicles THAT I WOULD BUY in the current market. I would not buy a GM, Ford or Chryco anything at this point. Toyota can still suck an egg and I'll likely be a vegetable before I purchase a Honda just out of principle. So I am comparing two cars THAT I WOULD ACTUALLY LOOK AT PURCHASING. Doesn't work for you? Great. does for me. The math doesn't work for me for SOMETHING I WANT TO PURCHASE.

Have I made myself clear here? Or do you want to build more strawmen to knock down because I can do this all day. 

z31maniac said:

You guys are constantly misqouting and setting up strawmen. No one said they can't be charged, again, all I said was the infrastructure isn't being built out fast enough for the proposed changeover date. Then shared a couple of news stories that indicated the same. 

Pointing that out doesn't mean I'm an any way, shape or form against EVs. I looked hard at a Tesla 3 Performance, but in the end couldn't justify the price for my usage. I've put 1k miles on my current car in almost 6 months. 

 

Either way, I'm bowing out. You guys can keep repeating yourselves to each other ad nauseum. 

This is the current theme. Argue what you can win not what is actually being discussed. 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I know much of the grid system in central NJ has been replaced/upgraded within the last few years. My company was part of the project team doing the work.  And I watched the new systems get built along the various routes I drive on through the area.  Much of that work was born out of the blackout of 2003. It then took another 10 years before it was engineered and funded. 

I work with a lot of engineers younger and smarter than I am - folks who didn't go to school for journalism before working as an electrical engineer... so I have a less dire outlook on the future.  Nature abhors a vacuum. So does economics. If there is a need, that need will eventually be filled. It just might not happen in the same way we've become accustomed to.

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Chris_V :

I've seen more than a few. But I'm sure its all lies. 

Which ones have you seen,? Early Volts with 16kWh batteries that have a 35 mile range (2000 cycles on that is 70k electric miles before needing battery replacement) or early Leafs with non thermally managed batteries that have similar timeframes before needing (cheap) replacement batteries? Or early compliance cars with short ranges that ALSO have lower overall lifespans due to smaller battery capacity and thus more charge cycles for their lifetimes?

Here's a Bolt at nearly 200k miles that still has full range left:

To be fair this is a bolt so the battery has probably been changed

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Chris_V :

I've seen more than a few. But I'm sure its all lies. 

Which ones have you seen,? Early Volts with 16kWh batteries that have a 35 mile range (2000 cycles on that is 70k electric miles before needing battery replacement) or early Leafs with non thermally managed batteries that have similar timeframes before needing (cheap) replacement batteries? Or early compliance cars with short ranges that ALSO have lower overall lifespans due to smaller battery capacity and thus more charge cycles for their lifetimes?

Here's a Bolt at nearly 200k miles that still has full range left:

Bolts, Leafs, Prii, Fusion, c-max, Volt and the lexus rx-whatever. Granted, most were hyrids and not pure EV's so I am sure it's going to be summarily dismissed by the purists even though its the same battery tech in the EV's. 

The problem is certain governments are decreeing things. The argument that you aim high and see improvement is terrible when it comes to markets. When governments come out and say things, it moves markets. It makes manufacturers go fully electric, then if we get to 2030 and the OEMs, based on what the govts have said, have gone fully electric and the infrastructure and pricing isnt there yet, consumers are left in a worse position, Govt forced movement we werent ready for and the consumers are left with bad choices in the sector, or failing electric infrastructure. I dont buy the argument that we will fix the grid, because we arent currently. The grid is becoming more unreliable. California wanted to shut down the nuke plant and replace it with "green energy" but they cant because they dont have the capacity.

Anthony makes a good point about not having the skills or capabilities in the US currently to fix some of these issues. Its why we have a 9 billion dollar hole in South Carolina were a nuke plant was supposed to be.

Toyota agrees that EVs are overhyped.

Im not saying they dont have a place. They work for some, but they dont work for all. EV trucks are still garbage and massively inferior to gas powered trucks. I have a problem with our failing infrastructure we arent fixing, and the government decreeing obviously stupid things.

Take California for example. The want to move to EVs for emissions, all the while the largest energy source for them is natural gas and imported energy

In reply to Tom1200 :

In reply to bobzilla :

You seem a bit cranky here. I hope you have a better day. Maybe engage in discussion you can enjoy. 

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Okay, let's measure the upgrades, how much improvement in the power factor was achieved via these upgrades?  

Yep, this thread is going about how I expected it would.

Wow 14 pages? The outrage machine must be generating some insane profit$.

In reply to bobzilla :

I'm gonna be honest here man. You get upset with Frenchy then generalize that anger to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Yes his posting style is frustrating. No you shouldn't hold that against other people.