I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

In reply to frenchyd :

The goals are not unrealistic.  They are very much in the realm of possibility.  Your argument that it costs too much to win re-election is the problem!  We need people that care about others and the problems not being re-elected.  You can help break that dynamic.  We all can.  

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

Don't we have people to feed, shelter, educate, drug issues, and other more tangible things to fix first?  I will believe the politicians and media on climate change when they clean up skid row, reduce crime in major cities and return the US to #1 in education.  Until then.....  

The people that want to fix those problems are generally the same ones that are concerned about the climate. Meanwhile half the country's solution to those issues is to tell the homeless, hungry, and otherwise disadvantaged to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and to do their own learning on YouTube. We can either decide we're going to try and fix these problems or be ok with them. Complaining about them while also complaining about anyone that tries to help makes no sense. 

This is a dishonestly framed and very thinly veiled political argument

Overall, almost no one wants to ignore these things. You framed a very obvious group of people with the most uncharitable version of their argument, and its not that they want to do nothing, they only disagree with your solutions. We've had this argument already, in this thread I think, and the group you say wants to do nothing tends to actually be the more charitable group. They just think the government getting more money and power to do the job they are already bad at isnt a solution.

If you are going to make a political argument, make a better one.

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

If your approach to fixing a problem is saying "I took care of myself, these people need to help themselves" or "It's not affecting me so it's not important" you're not interested in fixing a problem. To then say we shouldn't try to tackle other problems because we didn't tackle other problems that you have no interest in tackling is a weak excuse to just do nothing because it's cheaper than doing something. 
 

Again, there are lots of choices between all or nothing. All is great if we had unlimited resources and there were no unintended consequences from our actions. But we don't live in that reality. I don't think I've met a single person who advocated for nothing, yet it seems to be a common accusation when there is any pushback to all. The first step to solving a problem is identifying the problem. If you don't want to do that, then you will have little success in actually solving the problem. There is a good chance that you will actually make it worse, despite the best intentions. And since resources are finite, wasting resources on solutions with little chance of success or that are highly inefficient takes resources away from other solutions that could help more people. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

Beautifully said snow doggie . 
   Opinion?  I'm too much of a bigot. I love the fact the Elon Musk is making an American car desirable  all over the globe. 
     Plus I'm too old to need anything more than transportation  and if I did crave something more, my Jaguar will have to do.  
    The $11,000 BYD's?   If they got here they'd need enough changes ( air bags and crash testing etc ) they'd creep up in cost. Then you wouldn't get the $7500 &. $2500 since they are made in China.  
   What do you think?  They aren't selling well in Europe.  A spurt the first month when they were introduced and then sales fell off a cliff.    I mean places like Norway and Sweden  the Tesla  model Y is dominating.   In fact all of Europe they are selling very well.  
     Here in America we are paying a lot less than they are and the rebates are over in Europe and still a $65,000 Tesla is the number 2 selling car.   ?!?   
   My heart would like the MG 4  ( even if it's not British). Or have wire wheels. ;-) 

I think the sales on the Chinese cars in Europe fell off a cliff when they found out how reliable they aren't.

The American manufacturers have already decided that selling fewer more expensive cars is the way to go. They aren't really interested in replacing all the cars in the US with EVs. They aren't even interested in selling all of their cars in the US.  They are just interested in making money. With fewer new cars on the market, people will keep their old ICEs longer and higher prices for new cars is an incentive for poor people to keep patching their beaters together longer. They even got the government to subsidize the purchase of their more expensive EVs. It doesn't matter what we think on here about tax credits for the upper middle class. GM, Ford and Tesla have lobbyists in Washington working overtime to make these happen.

Some people will have to stretch their budgets with leases and a decade of car payments. Others will just give up and keep their old ICEs forever. Not the best way to convert the whole fleet to EVs on a timely basis.

Snowdoggie; 

    Owning a EV for 5 years will be boring.  But at the end of making payments the car should go  another 15-20 years  without much cost.   It doesn't have the wear points an ICE  does. Rings, valve seats, transmission maintenance , filters oil and fuel. 
     Aluminum, so it shouldn't rust in the rust belt   Tires will wear a little faster but brakes will last longer probably  a wash.  But no oil changes. 
My neighbors with them say they save  over $100 a month between the gas they used to buy and the electricity they currently pay for.. 

      more miles the savings get greater. 
 

  Range?  Drive the full range every day and you have over 100,000 miles on your car. In a year   Need a little more range ?  15 minutes on a Tesla supercharger gets you 150+ miles.  
 Real long trips most people fly  or you could keep your old ICE car  

  When I was putting real high mileage a year on my cars ( 65,-85,000 miles)  

my rule of thumb was 3 months in a row  of repairs ( maintenance doesn't count) that exceeded   3 months of car payments it was time to get a new car..  

     Rarely was my  car worth anything so the wife got it. 


    

frenchyd said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

It's not that simple.  While much of what you said is true, there are Cheap EV's right now. 
      The Tesla Model 3 or Y  start out at about $37,000 which is about $12,000 below the average price paid for a new car. 
     That's only the beginning.  
     The new Model 2 ( due 3/4 of 2024)  is going to start at $25,000. 
      If people avoid wasting money on what they don't need $0 down   $500 a month for 60 months should get   Them reliable transportation.   And they will be pay much less for "gas". 
    Tesla has a fantastic reputation for reliability.  The reason it's the number 1 selling car on the globe is its word of mouth reputation. 
   If you get a Tesla most qualify for the $7500 IRS tax credit.  What's your family's tax bill for a year?  If you've already paid that much or will pay that much you get a refund.  
  Here in Minnesota you get another $2500. Colorado gets you $5000 and California is rumored to match the fed I've been told countless times that 20 states  offer some help.  
       
     Bad news?   Any color other than white costs extra   Portable  chargers start out at $250 and go up to $500 for a garage mount    
  Extended range or the dual motor option adds significantly   
      The average family just doesn't  go far enough during the week to run out of even the short range  plus you plug it in every night and start with a full "tank" in the morning   It will take you 40 seconds to plug in  or unplug it. You can't even get a gas cap off in that time  

Now Legacy car companies can't compete with Tesla. So they lose money on each one they sell.   Can you say desperation?  
         Going in most legacy companies have around 200 billion dollars in debt. Tesla has 60 billion dollars in the bank. And every car sold makes them more profit. 
 

   Sorry if this sounds like a commercial. But ask around to Tesla owners. 
 It's really not a bad thing. 

The one Tesla owner I know is always complaining about the cost of maintenance. She just spent $7,000 putting a new motor in her car and it took her 6 months to get it done, but strangely enough, she still loves it. She also has a BMW that costs about the same to maintain. My ecoboost Mustang is much more reliable and it is paid for. It gets better gas mileage that most ICEs. At my age, this will probably be the last car I ever buy. I don't really drive that much and I have four other cars to drive.

So your state also gives you a tax credit? In Texas they would send me a $300 bill for driving an EV because I don't pay the gas tax.

I may be an outlier, but I don't borrow money to buy cars. I pay cash. Did you know that interest rates are going up? A $25,000 Tesla plus interest is more than $25,000. If I don't have cash, I keep my old car. I don't want take out a $25,000 loan with the weird economy we have right now. I'm sure the banks and finance companies are disappointed. I don't care.

Wasting money on other things so I can't make car payments? Maybe I would rather spend my money traveling with Mrs. Snowdoggie or racing my vintage Miata at the track, rather than handing my money to a car dealer and a finance company. Maybe if gas goes too high I will ride my 125 Zuma Scooter to work. I know some younger people who decide not to own a car at all and depend on public transit to get around. They save a lot of money. It all depends on your priorities.

 I'm not normal doesn't sound like you are either.  
  But average people are happy with the Tesla'.  You  don't become #1  On the globe by needing new motors.  Especially taking # 1 from Toyota. 
  We have one Tesla  owner already on here,  you might read his postings. 
      If I thought the Honda would go the rest of our lives  I wouldn't buy another car. I have 5 now.  1'm giving 1  away. The rest are "toys" to play with. 
      I like building engines and racing Vintage  cars  but if  I couldn't for some reason  work, we still need  reliable transportation.  The autonomous feature of Tesla means long after I  should give up my license the car will help get me home safely.. it won't force me into a retirement home.  
    Finally interest.  I'm sure you paid interest with your mortgage payments.  It's just the cost of life.  I got to deduct that interest from my tax obligation. As a result I was able to make a better investment.  While allowing me to live exactly where I wanted to.  
  Because we have a nice income now we will leave our money where it is and use credit to pay it off in 2 years.   
  We are gambling that the interest we pay will be less than the return on the investments   The odds are in our favor. 
      At 75 I pass the commercial drivers test every year  ( that includes medical and skills ) so I have reasonable confidence  I'll continue for a good long while. 
   You don't have to buy an EV. it's your choice.  But once you get to the point where you can't maintain your cars  your eyesight or hearing becomes less than required  how will you go to doctors appointments or grocery shopping? 
     That time comes to everyone.  Average cost of a retirement home or assisted living is $6000 a month. 

         

frenchyd said:

 I'm not normal doesn't sound like you are either.  
  But average people are happy with the Tesla'.  You  don't become #1  On the globe by needing new motors.  Especially taking # 1 from Toyota. 
  We have one Tesla  owner already on here,  you might read his postings. 
      If I thought the Honda would go the rest of our lives  I wouldn't buy another car. I have 5 now.  1'm giving 1  away. The rest are "toys" to play with. 
      I like building engines and racing Vintage  cars  but if  I couldn't for some reason  work, we still need  reliable transportation.  The autonomous feature of Tesla means long after I  should give up my license the car will help get me home safely.. it won't force me into a retirement home.  
    Finally interest.  I'm sure you paid interest with your mortgage payments.  It's just the cost of life.  I got to deduct that interest from my tax obligation. As a result I was able to make a better investment.  While allowing me to live exactly where I wanted to.  
  Because we have a nice income now we will leave our money where it is and use credit to pay it off in 2 years.   
  We are gambling that the interest we pay will be less than the return on the investments   The odds are in our favor. 
      At 75 I pass the commercial drivers test every year  ( that includes medical and skills ) so I have reasonable confidence  I'll continue for a good long while. 
   You don't have to buy an EV. it's your choice.  But once you get to the point where you can't maintain your cars  your eyesight or hearing becomes less than required  how will you go to doctors appointments or grocery shopping? 
     That time comes to everyone.  Average cost of a retirement home or assisted living is $6000 a month. 

         

My mother died of Covid in an assisted living home last summer. She probably got it from an employee there. It was a top of the line place near Preston Hollow in Dallas down the road from where a former US President lives. They had a Starbucks in the lobby and a gourmet chef in the kitchen. After about a year of COVID they had a labor shortage and was just as big a mess as any other assisted living center in Texas.  They sent her to the hospital with a respiratory problem without testing her and exposed everybody along the way including me and Mrs. Snowdoggie. The hospital where they sent her was a good hospital back in 2018 when I landed in the ER after crashing my motorcycle. After Covid, that hospital was an even bigger mess than the assisted living home. Not enough nurses. Not enough doctors. New employees wandering around confused. After Mom tested positive the doctor burst into our room wearing a moon suit and started screaming at me. That was the last time I saw my mother alive.  I don't hold it against the Doctor. She was overwhelmed as were the nurses. It was like something out of a Third World Country. I saw things that still give me nightmares. 

I would rather be euthanized at my dog's vet clinic than land in a place like that. Hopefully I will die before I ever need that, like my father did.

Lots of fanatical praise about Tesla. I offer a contrary opinion. And, to be fair, I actually like the product and would consider one aside from the following.

Teslas are horrible to get parts for. They weren't great pre-pandemic and aren't any better now. Waiting 6 months for a taillight is inexcusable.

If you crash your Tesla they will want you to take it to a 'certified Tesla repair shop' or Tesla body shop. The labor rates are often nearly double what every other body shop charges. Putting a bumper or quarter panel on a Tesla isn't any different than any other car, but it costs more because, Tesla. 

Try to get repair information from Tesla if you aren't one of the above places. Ain't happening.

The 'low cost to maintain' only applies when the car isn't needing work. When it does, you will pay more. Or your insurance company will, which means ultimately you will. 

I like the product but strongly dislike the company.

frenchyd said:

I'm very sorry to hear about your mother.  
    I too want to avoid places like that desperately.  One of the chief reasons to buy a Tesla. 
  Did you know that Texas has more renewables than any other state?

   Another interesting fact is that red states and districts have more EV's than Blue districts? Slight but real. 
  I understand why renewables. 
  It takes 3-8 years  to put in an oil well ( on shore) 5-15 years off shore it then takes another 7-14 years to break even before profits can begin.  
  Renewables take 1-2 years to be done and another 1-2 years to break even . 
  Since profits last for 20+ years  the return is simply better. 
       I love working on engines the careful fitting of parts for racing.  But it's such a poor  Rube Goldberg mechanism. Based on a steam engine. 
   A simple electric motor .  
  Did you know that Henry Ford's wife owned and drove a Baker?   Back in the 1920's  a  Baker would go 80 miles on a single charge? 
   

I'm still not sure I will see affordable/available self driving cars in my lifetime.  The liability on the manufacturer is just too high.  Mercedes just got approved for level 3 autonomous in a few states,  but only on highways at speeds less than 40 mph, so not very useful.  The good systems are probably just as capable of driving the car, but they are still just active cruise control with lane keep assist.  So if they can not see the road lines you have to take over with little warning.  Minnesota gets snow that can blind the camera & cover the road lines preventing self driving from working.

The companies running robotaxi services are only operating in cities with stable weather & little pedestrian traffic, most have a human driver either directly or remotely monitoring at all times.  They also have more/better sensors than any of the cars the public can buy.  Tesla has been making a lot of money saying they are just around the corner from that same level of autonomy for years.  Statistically it may be safer than a human driver, but as soon as there is no longer the disclaimer that you have to pay attention & be ready to take over driving they are responsible for any accident that occurs not the driver that was watching movies on their phone.

frenchyd said:

    I too want to avoid places like that desperately.  One of the chief reasons to buy a Tesla. 

This is my new favorite response. 

frenchyd said:

I'm very sorry to hear about your mother.  
    I too want to avoid places like that desperately.  One of the chief reasons to buy a Tesla. 
  Did you know that Texas has more renewables than any other state?

   Another interesting fact is that red states and districts have more EV's than Blue districts? Slight but real. 
  I understand why renewables. 
  It takes 3-8 years  to put in an oil well ( on shore) 5-15 years off shore it then takes another 7-14 years to break even before profits can begin.  
  Renewables take 1-2 years to be done and another 1-2 years to break even . 
  Since profits last for 20+ years  the return is simply better. 
       I love working on engines the careful fitting of parts for racing.  But it's such a poor  Rube Goldberg mechanism. Based on a steam engine. 
   A simple electric motor .  
  Did you know that Henry Ford's wife owned and drove a Baker?   Back in the 1920's  a  Baker would go 80 miles on a single charge? 
   Well.  

You just love pulling numbers out of the air.  Your oil well economic analysis is severely lacking.  It most definitely doesn't take 3-8 years to develop a well.  I worked in this business and reserves get updated annually for all new wells.  Real economic analysis at a well level is a function of many factors.  If you do some math based on TX (number of wells) divided by the years since oil was discovered you'll find out you can develop numerous wells per year easily.  
 

Yes TX has the most renewables.  How did that play out during winter storm Uri?  Guess who is scheduling and planning rolling blackouts for this summer?  My old neighbors are really happy you are in love with their grid problems.

In reply to frenchyd :

I like how you conveniently ignore that it's a spinning motor turning many times the rpm of an ICE motor.  What do you think the armature sits in while it spins that fast?  They're called bearings.  Remember those things?

In my line of work of water reclamation, we are constantly having to replace electric motors on our pumps and mixers, most often due to bearing failure.  I just had to replace the jet pump on my house last week because the bearing went bad.  I've had to do that three times in the not quite 20 years I've lived here.  So excuse me if I don't believe you about long-lasting, non-failing electric motors.

In reply to frenchyd :

Most cars don't have a gas cap anymore, so... it takes me less time than you plugging or unplugging your fictional Tesla.

racerfink said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I like how you conveniently ignore that it's a spinning motor turning many times the rpm of an ICE motor.  What do you think the armature sits in while it spins that fast?  They're called bearings.  Remember those things?

In my line of work of water reclamation, we are constantly having to replace electric motors on our pumps and mixers, most often due to bearing failure.  I just had to replace the jet pump on my house last week because the bearing went bad.  I've had to do that three times in the not quite 20 years I've lived here.  So excuse me if I don't believe you about long-lasting, non-failing electric motors.

 

 I can understand about electric motors in water failing.  
   So if replacement motors were a frequent occurance  I'd think Tesla Owner's would complain enough that  few would buy them.    Instead the Tesla model Y replaced the Toyota Corolla as best selling car globally. 
     Yes someTesla .   motors may fail. Just as some Toyota motors fail. 
   But the reputation Tesla has  tells me it's not a frequent occurrence

 For reliability .  I might point out the recent early model Tesla that went a million miles.   (on 2 sets of batteries ) 

racerfink said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Most cars don't have a gas cap anymore, so... it takes me less time than you plugging or unplugging your fictional Tesla.

I have 5 cars 4 have gas caps one doesn't.  Since the average age of a car now is 12&1/2 years  I feel very confident in that statement. 

My car is seven years old, and doesn't have a gas cap.

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm calling this post BS.

Here is the data.  Go divide the number of wells developed per year by the number of rigs.  You ever been to a rig site?  Want me to tell you how to start a rotary drill rig?

https://www.texasalmanac.com/articles/rig-counts-and-wells-drilled-by-year
 

Each rig drills multiple wells a year, a lot of them.  They are highly portable.  Each rig is typically on a well pad for a few weeks and then they disassemble and move to the next pad.  Like I said.  I've seen it.  You pulled numbers out of your.....

TX is having rolling blackouts this summer.  Would you like to talk to my friends and former neighbors experiencing it?  
 

Nice job denying the near grid collapse that occurred during Uri too.  There is a huge difference between renewable power and reliable power.  You need enough reliable power for the bad days.  Most places do not have it now.

Caperix said:

frenchyd said:

I'm very sorry to hear about your mother.  
    I too want to avoid places like that desperately.  One of the chief reasons to buy a Tesla. 
  Did you know that Texas has more renewables than any other state?

   Another interesting fact is that red states and districts have more EV's than Blue districts? Slight but real. 
  I understand why renewables. 
  It takes 3-8 years  to put in an oil well ( on shore) 5-15 years off shore it then takes another 7-14 years to break even before profits can begin.  
  Renewables take 1-2 years to be done and another 1-2 years to break even . 
  Since profits last for 20+ years  the return is simply better. 
       I love working on engines the careful fitting of parts for racing.  But it's such a poor  Rube Goldberg mechanism. Based on a steam engine. 
   A simple electric motor .  
  Did you know that Henry Ford's wife owned and drove a Baker?   Back in the 1920's  a  Baker would go 80 miles on a single charge? 
   

I'm still not sure I will see affordable/available self driving cars in my lifetime.  The liability on the manufacturer is just too high.  Mercedes just got approved for level 3 autonomous in a few states,  but only on highways at speeds less than 40 mph, so not very useful.  The good systems are probably just as capable of driving the car, but they are still just active cruise control with lane keep assist.  So if they can not see the road lines you have to take over with little warning.  Minnesota gets snow that can blind the camera & cover the road lines preventing self driving from working.

The companies running robotaxi services are only operating in cities with stable weather & little pedestrian traffic, most have a human driver either directly or remotely monitoring at all times.  They also have more/better sensors than any of the cars the public can buy.  Tesla has been making a lot of money saying they are just around the corner from that same level of autonomy for years.  Statistically it may be safer than a human driver, but as soon as there is no longer the disclaimer that you have to pay attention & be ready to take over driving they are responsible for any accident that occurs not the driver that was watching movies on their phone.

You and I have different ideas about self driving cars. 
   I don't expect to enter my destination and climb in the back seat and go to sleep. 
 I fully expect to be behind the steering wheel, alert and careful.   Letting the System warn me about blind spots, helping my reaction time and judgement. 
      Chevrolet is advertising exactly what I'm thinking about. 
  Tesla has started to send out hardware level 4 with certain models.  And giving discounts on level 3 hardware. 
     Incidentally  when my Grandfather was in his 80's and nearly blind with cataracts.  My Grandmother used to sit right next to him and tell him to turn a little to his left they were coming up to the curve etc.  

  Granted  this was remote rural Wisconsin during the middle of the day during the middle of the week.  Many years ago. 
  But they carried on like that for years until shortly before my grandfather passed.  Without incidents. 

 

The electric motors are not in water, they run pumps and mixers.

BTW, when I was big into running 1/24th scale slot cars (national level), the big thing to do was break your motor in (seating the brushes on the comm) by running it while it soaked in a glass of milk.  There's a big difference between AC and DC motors, and what applications they're better suited for.