t25torx wrote:
Okay so I think I found the fault with it not wanting to idle. I got to thinking about the BMW I fixed a while back and how it also wouldn't idle without assistance from me, that one was due to unmetered are getting in behind the MAF due to a tear in the intake boot. So that's where I began. And low and behold the intake boot connected to the throttlebody was crooked and a gap had opened up on the bottom side. So I took all the intake parts out and refit them together taking care to tighten all the clamps good, I also found the IAT sensor was fit into the hole using masking tape and RTV sealant to seal it to the intake. I removed all that crap and found a nice rubber grommet that would fit in nice and tight.
I also took a look at the MSD box to see how that was wired up, and turns out it wasn't. The only things connected to it where the ground and power wires, the TFI harness wasn't even connected to anything. So I just removed that completely to rule it out as a suspect. Now was the moment of truth. Turned the key and it started, but wouldn't idle right off. So I sat there giving it gas and then suddenly the engine note changed and she was idling by herself. Huh.. so I took her for a spin around the block and still falls flat on it's face at 3k rpms. Well I guess that's an improvement. I'll keep working on it this week.
For what it's worth it's actually a '95 GT that the previous owner swapped this stroker 351w into. The fuel pressure at idle was around 25 according to the gauge on the fuel rail. I'll try putting the MSD in correctly tomorrow and see if that helps anything.
I'd check that intake boot again. My 944 did this to me while I was with a girl I was more than slightly interested in, at 2 am, in rural sc... 3 hours of not being able to go above 3k rpms and probably POORING fuel into it I got it home. Turns out when I'd put my pep boys air filter on it (yeah I was young and dumb) i had knocked the intake tube off of the other side of the MAF... Maybe it fell off again?
alfadriver wrote:
Being a '96, that car should have an EECV,
Question for you- how much are you willing to get into this job? These guys have a lot of software tools available to work with- http://www.moates.net/ford-19862004-c-63.html which are similar (not the same) as the tools used to calibrate that.
So I looked and the build date on the car is 11/94 which would actually put it as a '95 not '96 as I stated before, sorry for the confusion there.
That's a good question. I bought this car pretty much for the motor. I will be pulling it and putting it into the Daytona Coupe I'm rebuilding. I don't really have a whole lot of money in the car right now so I'm willing to spend a bit more to get it running perfect for the transplant. I just figured it would be easier to get ti running good in this car before yanking it and throwing it into the other car.
In reply to t25torx:
Since this is a transplant project, that actually opens up the possibilities.
Including an MS solution- I'm sure there's a pretty straight forward set up that can use the same inputs as well as the distributor outputs.
I guess first things first, and see if there is an easy solution to your engine. If a simple injector swap to something more appropriate would fix most of your problems- that's fast and easy. And cheap, since the injectors you have are useful.
Plus- the controller you have is likely correct to the car, and was intended to run a 5.0. That's useful. EECIV's are not the easiest thing to flash, especially compared to the EECV.
Fuel pressure is low. 30-45
MAF sensor. with the engine warm an idling, tap on the sensor. any change, bad sensor.
If the MAF is not putting out sufficient voltage at high speed, another problem.
I assume you have check fuel pump output, volume not just pressure.
1 pint in 15 secs.
IF the SPOUT connector (2 pin jumper connector) on the disrtibutor is not there, your timing will be fixed at whatever the base timing is set at, at least on a stock distributor.
I can't imagine the engine running well over 3000RPM on 10 degrees of timing advance...
iceracer wrote:
Fuel pressure is low. 30-45
MAF sensor. with the engine warm an idling, tap on the sensor. any change, bad sensor.
If the MAF is not putting out sufficient voltage at high speed, another problem.
I assume you have check fuel pump output, volume not just pressure.
1 pint in 15 secs.
The pressure is good for that vintage of car. The pressure regulator would be 39psi minus whatever manifold vacuum is. 30psi at idle is slightly low- but still is in the ball park. 39 would be the upper limit without boost.
Fuel pressure might also have been adjusted down so it would run (at all) with those huge injectors.
Those Fuel injectors are "green" and not the brown that are common on 5.0L so they should be "bigger" then the 19 lb the stock 5.0 were. That being said the Mass Air meter and the ECU need to talk to each other and under stand that you have something bigger then 19lb injectors on this thing. I had a 1993 Cobra and they came with 24lb FI and they were not green. Both the 1995R and Lighting PU; which both got 5.8L engines used the 24lb FI's. So you may have some 30lb FI's.
Green tops are 42# injectors. That's way more than you need for what's pictured there. I'd think 24# would be plenty. The orange tops are 19# and are pretty cheap since the what GTs used. Blue tops are 24#. I'd get a set on eBay before I did anything else. SuperCoupes used 36# - I have no idea what used 42#... but I'm positive it's not your Mustang.
Yeah the green tops are 42lbs's like Apis said. And looking at the rubbed off writing on the MAF it looks to be calibrated to 42's. So it looks to be sitting at 25psi at idle for the fuel pressure. I didn't get to swing by HF to pick up that timing light yet, but I did read up on how to set it once I do. Did some research on the ECU front also and looks like QuarterHorse is kinda the best bang for the buck when it comes to EEC tuning so I'll see if I can snag one of those up.
By the way, nice subject line.
i must be the only one here who likes msd components. Do they not play well with fuel injected cars or am i missing something?
50,000 volts doesn't do anything if you only need 5,000 to jump the gap and make a spark.
The ignition system will only use enough power to make a spark and nothing more.
Factory ignition systems are more than enough for just about anything you can throw at them unless you need boost retard or something silly.
Ignition upgrades have been proven, over and over again to be the least bang-for-your-buck.
I wonder what the plugs look like and if they're even the "right" plugs for the application. 42lb injectors in a 351 that isn't boosted sounds like some odd choices may have been made to get this thing together.
Trans_Maro wrote:
50,000 volts doesn't do anything if you only need 5,000 to jump the gap and make a spark.
The ignition system will only use enough power to make a spark and nothing more.
Factory ignition systems are more than enough for just about anything you can throw at them unless you need boost retard or something silly.
Ignition upgrades have been proven, over and over again to be the least bang-for-your-buck.
Depends on what you are trying to fix.
For just igniting spark, you are spot on.
But older versions of this engine ran with TFI modules. Replacing that would be a good thing, to me.
The way it is presented on this engine, it was as much for looks as performance. Which is fine.
If the MAF is calibrated to the injectors, try disconnecting the vacuum from the fuel pressure regulator. Then see what pressure you have on the rail and see if it will go past 4000rpm. I had a very similar issue with a Tbird I had 15 years ago. Cobra engine,T5, bigger MAF/TB, etc. I recall that the fuel pressure was 40 something at idle stock. I had an adjustable regulator (which you may as well- not obvious with the vacuum connected) and had to raise the pressure to nearly 60 to get the 19# injectors to provide enough fuel. I later got 24# and the car ran great. A PO may have lowered the pressure to try to get it to run. I'm not sure what the spray pattern would be like at 25psi. Disconnecting the vacuum from the regulator will raise the pressure. It's an experiment...
In reply to Apis_Mellifera:
Realistially, the spray pattern is pretty irrelevant for this application. The original injectors are probably simple pintles without nozzles, whereas the 42lb ones were designed for a 4 valve engine, and the cone pattern is trying to splay out to come close to the two valves. Which, of course, are not there on this engine.
The pattern really matters for the cold start and then transient fuel. Once warmed up, most of the pattern goes away anyway.
t25torx- any way you can borrow an a/f meter (AKA WBO2 or UEGO)? That will tell all.
Or an alternative- can you monitor the O2 sensor? Un-plug it to force it open loop- that will at least give you an idea if you are rich or lean to start with.
Wouldn't fuel pressure that's ~40% low not atomize properly?
In reply to Apis_Mellifera:
cone low vs. pintle normal? I doubt one could tell the difference.
Plus- if the engine is at full operating temp- they are both injecting vapor- it will flash vaporize at the exit. At that point, there isn't any pattern- just a cloud.
In reply to jmthunderbirdturbo:
Hey jmthunderbirdturbo...a little off the topic...but do you know much about radiator fan relay / module / sensor? I have an 86 Thunderbird turbo coupe with 96K miles and don't want to overheat my engine! My radiator fan is not being supplied electricity, and the system overheats and coolant fluid exits system. Is the fan controller module under the dash? I put new coolant sensor in, but I don't know if that is the sensor which the fan control module uses, and the fan still is not being activated. I tried direct messaging you, but I needed "administrative approval" for some reason!
I like reading these detective threads, but hate it when I'm the one posting them.
Trans_Maro wrote:
50,000 volts doesn't do anything if you only need 5,000 to jump the gap and make a spark.
The ignition system will only use enough power to make a spark and nothing more.
Factory ignition systems are more than enough for just about anything you can throw at them unless you need boost retard or something silly.
Ignition upgrades have been proven, over and over again to be the least bang-for-your-buck.
makes sense, I just know a 6al and blaster 2 coil cured my ignition issues on my nitrous set up. Ive just never seen so many people recommend removing an msd set up so I was curious!
The factory engineers who worked on the Dodge NATCC cars tested their 2.0L cars with every conceivable ignition system and found the factory solution worked just as well at 300hp as any of the aftermarket solutions.
So yeah, once you get away from points and into factory electronic ignition solutions the aftermarket stuff loses its potential.
Here's the thing.
If you're trying to diagnose a bodged, hacked-together mess that someone else has created, the best way to do it is to simplify the system as much as possible.
Removing a badly installed aftermarket -anything- and returning the system to factory specification is the easiest way to eliminate problems.
Lots of people -think- they know what they're doing. The reality is that most of them know just enough to make things worse.
I don't dislike MSD systems, they're just completely redundant in most cases and often badly installed.
I'm sure red wires and distributor caps add at least 50hp.
