Hello all,
I have a fairly odd tech question that seems basic, but it's a first time for me:
I inherited a car from my parents. It's a 2010 Mitsubishi Outlander, and although it has no sentimental value for me (I was already old when they got this thing, so I never formed a bond with it like "The car I learned to drive in" or "The car I borrowed for a date" or "The car Dad used to send me off to University"), it kind of means something to them. The resale value on these ended up being so low that when they decided to get a Lexus NX200T, they never even considered trading it in or even selling it themselves. In their advanced age, they figured the stress wasn't worth it for what little they would get. Better they get joy from it by giving it to me.
So, I'm kind of not allowed to sell it for a few years, maybe. And in this pandemic situation, I don't want to anyway. Besides, It's nice to have a beater that really isn't: It's under (EDIT: About) ten years old and has no major maintenance point about to become due. It's actually well maintained by the dealer. ...'cept for one thing.
My father is a chronic lug nut overtightener. That's 10 seasons of seasonal tire changes (we get winter here) performed by my father where he'd put his full weight on the breaker bar, on oiled/greased up lug nuts, right up until they make a creaking sound. It's kind of a miracle he's never snapped a stud. Although my brother warns me that he's observed that one of the rear studs is crossthreaded, so there's that...
This chronic lug nut overtightening is a point of argument that my dad has with my brother and me that we've given up correcting our Dad about it because he just kept coming back to it and he just kept getting mad and I (we) can't deal with someone who'd still do such a thing after having been gifted a torque wrench and anti seize compound that promises on the label to not alter torque values. I just swore to never ride in a vehicle he's done this to.
Well, now I have Dad's former car. I've been driving it around the city, but sheared studs offer no warning when they fail, as I've been told. So I haven't really taken it to the nature parks I frequent in the mountains. If this thing is to be my winter car, perhaps even the mountain car that crosses mountain passes often, those studs have to be replaced. But is that it?
Questions:
- Do the lug nuts need to be replaced too? I guess that corner with the crossthreaded stud would need to have all their nuts replaced, as it's likely he's damaged a few nuts shuffling them around to that crossthreaded stud - but what about the rest of them? Do nuts yield too?
-Hubs? Are hubs damaged by ridiculously overtightened lug nuts?
-Rims? Am I looking at damaged rims too?
For what its worth, other than a slightly crooked wheel from the car needing an alignment, the car has no steering wheel vibration at any speed....
Thank you for the time.
In reply to randedge :
Others may chime in with dire warnings of catastrophe, disease and pestilence, but I wouldn't make this molehill into a mountain unless you're running this car hard in an off-road rally racing sort of a way.
Of course, you should inspect the wheels for damage, and of course, you should replace any studs or nuts that do not run smoothly, but beyond that, I'd just torque the wheels to spec and drive the thing.
tuna55
MegaDork
9/8/20 1:52 p.m.
It's bad to do, but honestly an older guy trying his best is probably not completely wrecking things. The problems come in when torque is measured in ugga duggas. First things first, take them off in turn, inspect the stud and lug, retorque to proper values. Report back.
In reply to randedge :
My take would be that you should replace the lugnuts. Not sure if you'll do the work yourself on the studs or not, but the cost of lugnuts ($40-60?) is probably still fairly cheap insurance. I would guess your hubs are fine, and probably the rims as well - but we may need one of the wheel experts to chime in with that one.
Yeah, it's probably not as bad as it seems. I'd replace all the studs and lug nuts just to be safe, and inspect the wheel seats for damage, but you'll probably be fine.
If you take the wheel off and use a fresh, new wheel nut, can you run the nut all the way up and down the studs with your fingers with no binding or tight/weird spots? If so, the studs probably aren't severely stretched.
The last car I had issues with breaking wheel studs was my wife's old '15 Subaru. The previous owner or previous repair shop must have severely overtightened the lug nuts at some point, because all the wheel studs were stretched. This issue generally presented itself when I wanted to remove a wheel, and the nuts would seize on the way off and become so galled that the stud would twist in half. Think I had one or two that seized and broke when trying to put the nuts back on. So you are probably OK if the studs haven't yielded and the threads still thread nicely.
Tom Suddard said:
Yeah, it's probably not as bad as it seems. I'd replace all the studs and lug nuts just to be safe, and inspect the wheel seats for damage, but you'll probably be fine.
Yes. This is what I would feel comfortable with.
Being in rural 'Bama I talked my wife's goofy cousin into taking me to the weekly car auction to look for a clean K5 Blazer (maybe 1989?).
Driving down a rural road doing 50-60 when he pulls over and says something is wrong with the front wheel. He points out that another lug stud had busted off and it's now being held on by 3 lugs. He tells me he hopes no more lugs pop off. I pucker up until we get there.
I didn't buy a K5 and I rode back with his brother and no lugs popped off and I was called a Bob Costas the rest of the week.
@ the OP:
That is how I/we always tightened lug nuts and we never had one come off or break. Call it a highly calibrated elbow if you want. It was only when I started actually racing on track that these new fanged things called torque wrenches became a thing and even then we just get them on good and tight most of the time. I rebuilt countless engines and drive lines and brake jobs with out even considering torque specs and we survived just fine. But that was then and I assume that is from the same time your dad is from.
BTW that noise you are hearing is not the lug on the stud it is the lug against the rim. A little lube on the rim surface makes that noise go away.
Also the manufacturers of general purpose cars are aware that about 90 percent of the tires put on there cars are done with highly calibrated elbows and as such there is a very good margin designed in to them. Otherwise they would be torque wrenches included with the jack and the spare tire in cars or they would be getting sued.
If it makes you sleep better change out the studs but I would not worry about it at all.
How do you check out studs that are in the rear axle or front hub ?
I had a couple studs break off my Vans rotor that I just put on a week before ,
I put it on with hand tools so not over tight ,
I ended up having AutoClub take me home and I put on another new rotor from the other auto parts store ,
who knows anymore where are parts come from and the quality control or lack of it !
Sorry about your parents credit....
I keed, I keed. I'd do new lugnuts, replace the cross threaded lug, and call it a day
How over tightened could they be considering dad's "advanced age"? Use your trusty and calibrated torque wrench to find out.
Then remove the wheels and inspect the lug and nut threads. If they go on smoothly you're likely good. Replace those that are questionable.
Enjoy your gift.
If the lug nuts are overtightened, the taper will pinch and gall on the studs.
I have also seen stretched studs.
Visually inspect the lug nuts. If the tapers are no longer straight sided, scrap them.
Grab a 12x1.5 nut and make sure it can thread all the way down without binding. If the studs are stretched, you will not be able to do this.
L5wolvesf said:
How over tightened could they be considering dad's "advanced age"? Use your trusty and calibrated torque wrench to find out.
Then remove the wheels and inspect the lug and nut threads. If they go on smoothly you're likely good. Replace those that are questionable.
Enjoy your gift.
He's old, but not feeble. Grew up in a farm, so maybe that's where he got this overkill attitude from.
I, we (my brother and I) just know that he's an overtightener and in my younger days, saw him do it.
One time, they wintered somewhere warm so I ended up watching the house and switching their cars to winter tires too. This is how we know that he kept up this bad habit even after my brother and I gifted him with the aforementioned torque wrench and brush on anti seize.
FWIW, antisieze will also cause overtightening, even if you use the torque wrench. Bolt torque is dependent on what is lubricating the threads, 90% of the time the stud and nut are supposed to be "clean and dry" and the other 10% it is supposed to be with a drop or two of light oil. I don't remember the specs for antiseize, but some other lubes will cut the required torque down by 90% compared to clean dry threads. Meaning you would need 10 lb-ft with the lube to equal the same stud loading as 100lb-ft with clean dry threads.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
FWIW, antisieze will also cause overtightening, even if you use the torque wrench. Bolt torque is dependent on what is lubricating the threads, 90% of the time the stud and nut are supposed to be "clean and dry" and the other 10% it is supposed to be with a drop or two of light oil. I don't remember the specs for antiseize, but some other lubes will cut the required torque down by 90% compared to clean dry threads. Meaning you would need 10 lb-ft with the lube to equal the same stud loading as 100lb-ft with clean dry threads.
Hmn... that much?
I was taught by the vroom vroom hoooligans who take corners fast... that anti seize within is forgiveable in our climate where stuff rusts. "Compared to clean dry threads" but, one winter here and those studs are not going to be clean.
But yeah, lube is bad, right? Well my dad uses either grease or motor oil on the studs. Lots of 'em.
Wait, you mean you're not supposed to lean on the lug wrench with all your weight on it? I've been doing it wrong this whole time.
I remember checking my mom's rear drum brakes on a corolla, two studs were stretched and another gauled. Had to use lube to get the nuts all the way off. Then beat out the old studs, I couldn't pull the hub to beat new studs in had to pull brake backing plate out of the way and hammer the studs in with a drift. Of coarse the replacement were slightly larger in diameter so I had to file them.
Someone had to have used the impact, the studs were like 1/4 or something small. Same job had the rear wheel brake cylinder fall apart in my hands and leak out all the brake fluid. For a quick check, went pretty well.
randedge said:
Steve_Jones said:
Sorry about your parents credit....
I don't get it.
It took me a minute as well. Mitsubishi has been going down a road for a while of selling cars to bottom tier credit buyers. Making their money on high interest rates rather than the actual car, etc. Obviously this isn't the case 100% of the time, but the stereotype is present.
As for the lug nut and studs, replace them if it will give you peace of mind but I think you're fine. Manufacturers over-engineer the crap out of them because customers can actually lay hands on the things and it looks really bad when your cars' wheels fall off.
I find it unlikely that pops did any worse than the monkeys at the Quickie-Lube with their air impacts.
I used to get my 626 inspected at the corner garage. There were a couple instances where I needed to pull a tire and the lugs were so tight I ended up twisting off a wheel stud before the nut would come loose.
The reason that there's so much disagreement on the "correct" way to install lug nuts is that it really doesn't require that much precision. It's not like putting oil on the threads, for example, guarantees that all 4 wheels will pop off causing you, your family and a bus full of nuns to die in a fiery wreck. Yes, it's possible to over tighten them and damage the studs and you can leave them too loose and have a wheel fall off but there's a wide range of torque values that will work in between.
If the nuts run up the studs by hand smoothly and there are no cracks on the wheels then it's unlikely that there's anything wrong. If it makes you feel better to replace the nuts and studs then by all means go ahead but personally I wouldn't bother.
newrider3 said:
If you take the wheel off and use a fresh, new wheel nut, can you run the nut all the way up and down the studs with your fingers with no binding or tight/weird spots? If so, the studs probably aren't severely stretched.
That's my take too. There are two sorts of damage that could happen here - you could snap the stud in half, but that would almost always happen when tightening the nut, or you could booger up the threads. If the nut threads onto the stud and the stud is, well, still present and accounted for, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
In reply to MadScientistMatt :
Or, the lug nuts tighten against the "stretched" part of the threads instead of the wheel.
Kind of like when you have a wallowed out wheel and the lug nut tightens against the rotor/drum.
In reply to APEowner :
with tapered lug nuts, you can also damage the lug nut from overtightening, turning the first couple threads of a 12mm lug nut into 11.8mm threads. At best, they bind on the stud and take a lot of torque just to turn, so the clamping load is too low for a given torque. At worst, they gall on the stud and you either rip the threads out when you try to take it back off, or you break the stud. This will usually happen in a rain storm, at night.
