Nashco wrote: Why not a ceramic heater? Bryce
Worked for the OEM Ford Ranger EV's.
MedicineMan wrote: To post a message in reference to the original thought... Run the air conditioner backwards...not much heat but does work-ever seen a mitsubishi Mr. Slim that is how some of them work, and everything is there (if it has an electric ac compressor)
Heatpumps were the GM EV1/S10e solution.
if you did it right... you could a large fan to fun the heatpump and just increase your drag rather than discharging your battery..
and if done right, in a ram air sort of way, it will not even be that much drag added to the car
just remember if all the appliance vehicles (commuters) were electric, how much gas does that leave for us "petrol heads". I think plug in electrics are going to be superceded soon any way. Fuel cells and super capacitors are going to be developed to the point that they will be cheaply and mas produced.
my .02 on the subject
Fuel cells are never going to be a viable solution because one of the components of the fuel cell itself (maybe someone can help me out with specifics here) does not exist in a large enough quantity to satisfy the demand for them.
Actually, fuel cells have a lot of problems. Hydrogen production is expensive and uses quite a bit of energy, you need to create infrastructure to move the Hydrogen (pipelines), you need to store massive quantities at your stations, you need to store large quantities of it on-board the vehicle, and then you need to convert it somehow to electricity (BMW uses internal combustion in a 6.0 liter V-12 to make a "whopping" 280 hp just by burning the Hydrogen).
So . . . why not skip all that crap and just store the electricity in a battery? You need the electricity in the beginning to harness the Hydrogen (probably from water or from a Natural Gas-derived solution), why not just send it the most efficient way possible right to the car's battery? In every process listed above, there is wasted energy doing something that it doesn't need to do (harness, move, store, and convert Hydrogen).
Also, those super capacitors power electric motors.
thatsnowinnebago wrote: Fuel cells are never going to be a viable solution because one of the components of the fuel cell itself (maybe someone can help me out with specifics here) does not exist in a large enough quantity to satisfy the demand for them.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Batteries that can power an automobile sufficiently well might not exist in large enough quantities to satisfy demand either. But GM, Toyota, and dozens of other companies are throwing billions of dollars (about $9.15 in 1995 dollars, adjusted for current inflation 
) at developing them, betting that the demand is actually there.
Electricity is simple, it's safe (ish), and it's efficient. We are the generation that will have to deal with the ultimate obsolescence of gasoline. I'll miss the sound of a V8 roaring to life, but my kids probably won't. OK, my kids will because I will teach them "The Way", but most kids born to my generation won't.
Why is it that all the posts above seem to carry the tone of electric vehicles = lame?
I'm not against electric vehicles. I agree the instant torque would be awesome.
you should see what the dragracers can do with electric motors
Chris_V wrote: If people DID recharge at work, they would basically only be "topping off," for the vast majority of them, so it would add very little load to the grid.
If work provided an outlet, why would I ever plug in at home? It'd be the equivalent of work giving away free gas.
mad_machine wrote: if you did it right... you could a large fan to fun the heatpump and just increase your drag rather than discharging your battery.. and if done right, in a ram air sort of way, it will not even be that much drag added to the car
But the power needed to overcome the increased drag will come from the battery so you'll be discharging the battery the same amount, more actually because of the additional weight and mechanical losses of a large fan, than simply running a heat pump from the battery. And no, a ram air sort of way is not going to eliminate much of the drag, nor the power needed to turn the fan.
Bob
so what part of the fuel cell is made from unobtanium? And how does it compare to getting the raw materials for batteries from "less than friendly", plus disposal of batteries when they die out?
Not trying to be a D-Bag with a point to make, I'm seriously interested.
The EV drive motors are not 100% efficient, and guess where the excess energy goes: to heat. So they all need some degree of cooling anyway. Why not integrate a heat pump so that the waste heat from the drive motor can be transferred to the cabin when needed?
There's usually a computer to manage the system anyway to handle command/control.
Carter
DILYSI Dave wrote:Chris_V wrote: If people DID recharge at work, they would basically only be "topping off," for the vast majority of them, so it would add very little load to the grid.If work provided an outlet, why would I ever plug in at home? It'd be the equivalent of work giving away free gas.
The same reason you would recharge at work is the reason you'd recharge at home. The electricity is cheap compared to the cost of additional batteries, plus as you have more batteries you've got the efficiency/packaging stuff brought up earlier. With today's electricity and battery prices, it usually makes way more sense to charge more often if possible and use less batteries. Even if you've got the batteries to allow for longer drives between charges, your batteries will live longer if you don't discharge them as deeply between charges.
erohslc wrote: The EV drive motors are not 100% efficient, and guess where the excess energy goes: to heat. So they all need some degree of cooling anyway. Why not integrate a heat pump so that the waste heat from the drive motor can be transferred to the cabin when needed?
When the system is operating efficiently, they have very, very low heat rejection. For example, my commute to work is only 3 miles each way and 40 mph or less. The motor and electronics aren't going to provide enough waste heat to heat the cabin, especially when it's cold outside as would be the case when you want a heater.
Bryce
kreb wrote: Hippies can't afford electric cars
You hit on the key point that few EV manufacturers get; if they don't sell any cars, they won't be able to stay in business. Basing your profitability on sales to a miniscule market segment is NOT the way to move enough product to stay in business[+].
Many manufacturers are trying to build high dollar EV sports cars (Wrightspeed etc., Tesla, Tzero, Venturi Fetish, etc.) despite the fact that most people interested in sporty cars will buy the ariel atom instead of the wrightspeed, will buy the lotus instead of the tesla, etc. What I'm getting at is that most people who want to buy a sports car will buy the best performance car they can afford; they won't pay more to get a car that does less. Making the lower performance car green won't change that.
If someone wants to sell a lot of EVs, they need to make something with similar capabilities to a corolla and as close to a corolla price as possible; the key to profitability is selling to a large enough market segment to support your company.
Bryce, it's not about the temperature, it's about the energy. If you are using 10 HP to drive the car down the road, even if the EV motor is 90% efficient, that's still 1 HP worth of heat energy, otherwise wasted, that a heat-pump can transform to heat the cabin. You don't need to wait for the motor to get 'hot' in the sense of being comfortable to you, the heat pump takes care of the temperature conversion. It's already capable of pumping the heat from the outside cold air, but the higher the temp of it's heat source, the more efficient it will be.
Carter
Carter 1hp is (IIRC) 746 watts. That's about half of what your average toaster or hairdryer uses. That isn't a lot of energy to merit designing a heat capturing system (which will of course not be 100% efficient) wrapping around your motor for your heat pump to use. If a diesel motor at ~ 40% efficiency has a hard time heating you car by capturing the waste heat, then a motor that is 80-90% efficient is going to be that much more worthless.
But MrJoshua, ISTR that one of the goals of EV and the like is efficiency.
The point is: 1) if you already have a heat pump onboard to handle cabin environment, which will likely have it's condenser/evaporator 'underhood', and 2) you already have an aircooled EV motor (yes, check them out) in the same general vicinity, then 3) ducting the EV exhaust air to the heatpump condenser/evaporator does not really appear to be rocket science.
Toasters and hairdryers are hardly good examples of efficiently converting electric energy to heat. They are cheap and simple, but not efficient, just like an incandescent bulb. They may use 750W of electricity, but they don't deliver 750 W of heating.
And before you poo-poo 'only' 1 HP/746 watts, consider that a superbly conditioned human cannot sustain the generation of that much energy. (the Gossamer human powered aircraft come to mind)
Have you ever pushed a car for any distance? The 1/4-1/3 HP that your body can generate will not be able to get it moving very fast, nor for very long.
And my final comment; most of the waste heat from your diesel is going out the tailpipe. The water jacket, pump, and radiator is called a 'cooling system', not a 'heating system'. ;) It's there for the motor, not the driver.
Carter
neon4891 wrote: so what part of the fuel cell is made from unobtanium? And how does it compare to getting the raw materials for batteries from "less than friendly", plus disposal of batteries when they die out? Not trying to be a D-Bag with a point to make, I'm seriously interested.
I wish I could remember what exactly it was. I think it was some precious metal like platinum or something. Other than that, I don't know the answers to the rest of your questions.
Carter-I was thinking more along the line of designing a set of coolant lines wrapped around the body of the motor. A system of directing the air from the motor cooling fan through the heatpump system would be a much simpler fabrication job. Worth trying I agree.
AngryCorvair wrote: Many people who are poseur douchebags wishing to give the appearance of saving the planet while blindly ignoring that the other end of that extension cord goes right to a coal plant, but that's ok because it's NIMBY, arrange something with their employers. If there's nearby power already available, it's usually pretty easy going. If facility improvement are required, it's totally a case-by-case basis depending on if the boss/owner digs EVs or not. fixed
I'm sick of hearing this argument. Cleaning up the energy producing infrastructure in this country is the Government's job and belongs in the political arena. If I start driving an electric vehicle (or even a plug-in hybrid), I've taken a serious stab at reducing the amount of pollution my daily driving generates, and that's true regardless of where the electricity is coming from.
JoeyM wrote:kreb wrote: Hippies can't afford electric carsYou hit on the key point that few EV manufacturers get; if they don't sell any cars, they won't be able to stay in business. Basing your profitability on sales to a miniscule market segment is NOT the way to move enough product to stay in business[+]. Many manufacturers are trying to build high dollar EV sports cars (Wrightspeed etc., Tesla, Tzero, Venturi Fetish, etc.) despite the fact that most people interested in sporty cars will buy the ariel atom instead of the wrightspeed, will buy the lotus instead of the tesla, etc. What I'm getting at is that most people who want to buy a sports car will buy the best performance car they can afford; they won't pay more to get a car that does less. Making the lower performance car green won't change that. If someone wants to sell a lot of EVs, they need to make something with similar capabilities to a corolla and as close to a corolla price as possible; the key to profitability is selling to a large enough market segment to support your company. + - The exception to this is if you have an insanely high profit margin on each unit. That's not the case with any of the EVs listed above.
Ahh, but the reality is that electric cars are like computers, cell phones, and even big screen TVs. The early adopters are the more wealthy that can afford to subsidize the new tech. My Dell XPS quad core computer cost me $800. A decade ago, a 486DX2-66 that had vastly less capability cost in excess of $6k. $8k if I wanted dual processors. Same for cell phones. in TVs, 5 years ago, a 50" plasma TV was $8k. Now, the same TV can be had new for $1800.
Cars like the Tesla have to be geared toward the wealthy who have to have the latest thing. Then that tech becomes cheaper, easier to mass produce, and in many cases, smaller and easier to package. But it has to go to the wealthy first or it won't go anywhere.
even the first cars were geared towards the wealthy.. the poor walked or rode a horse.. (now it seems the poor drive and the wealthy ride horses.. go firgure that out)
I have been tempted to build a locost and make it electric.. I really am
I thought I would weigh in on this subject since I'm finishing my bachelor's in mechanical engineering this semester and one of the classes I'm taking deals with up-to-date fuel cell technology.
First, fuel cells have been around since 1839, so they are not new whiz-bang tech. Second, platinum was used in large quantities in NASA fuel cells, they have figured out how to reduce the required amount of pt need by a huge factor (like 10X less) so that is not as much of an issue. Third, fuel cells can be up to 85% efficient in a combined cycle application (Solid Oxide Fuel Cell). Low or intermediate temperature SOFCs produce waste heat that is between 500 C-800 C so I dont think cabin heat will be a problem. Last, solid storage of hydrogen in the form of metal hydrides could make it feasable to store enough hydrogen for extended range.
It's also worth to note that fuel cells are aimed at large scale powerplant applications as well to produce no emission or very low emission electrical power for use on the grid.
I have a PDF of the presentation our guest lecturer made on the subject that goes into more detail if anyone is interested. It's ~3megs so I can email.
mad_machine wrote: even the first cars were geared towards the wealthy.. the poor walked or rode a horse.. (now it seems the poor drive and the wealthy ride horses.. go firgure that out) I have been tempted to build a locost and make it electric.. I really am
There's a section of the locost forum that's on non-traditional builds. Several people there talk about electrics: http://locostusa.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=18&sid=d9aca51cbd535b8f1da095d362eb8ebe
You'll need to log in to post.
