Learn Me: Porsche 964...

So I've been wanting a 911 for awhile now and have been watching the incredible price escalation with some dismay as they're rapidly getting out of my price range.

I've always liked the 964 as it's still air cooled, looks like an old school 911 but has the 3.6 motor and somewhat operational hvac. They were also somewhat ignored so the bang for the buck was there.

Well, now they're no longer being ignored and prices are beginning to blast through the roof.

I think I've found a decent car to buy, '92 C2, 5 speed. 115k miles, ltw flywheel/clutch, lowering springs/shocks, otherwise stock. Price is attractive, as long as I don't have to rebuild the powertrain I'll be doing ok.

What all do I need to know about these? I also think a 911 isn't a 911 without a whale tail, will any of the previous 911 trunk lids/tails fit? Like one off a SC or Carrera?

Well, first, it's the most expensive 911 to maintain. Look for distributor work. Also, wierdly, from my experience they like to rust more than any other galvanized 911. Engine maintenance is key. Adjusting valves is really difficult engine in. Honestly, I'd rather have a well maintained 3.2 or sc or s or step up to a 993. Or stuff a 3.6 in an earlier car. As to hvac, even the 993 is a joke next to a 996. Remember. This is coming from a guy who's owned air cooled 901s since 1985 and has a 76, that I've had since 93

Hmm, why is it the most expensive one to maintain? I figured a 993 or newer Turbo would cost more.

The distributor literally just got replaced, so no worries there. I'll ask about when the valves were last adjusted.

Car's always been out here near me, so no rust.

Its not parts, well it is, sorta. Its labor. Its a twin plug motor with distributor problems. Its also old enough that head studs will be failing soon. The 993 has self adjusting valve clearance. The 964 still needs to done old school. Also, technologically its in the transition from old tech to new tech, as is the 993, so its not nearly as simple or as light as early cars. Although going 2wd will certainly help with maintenance costs. The 964 puts out 33 more bhp than a stock 911 carrera but a carrera can cut that in half with an exhaust mod and go above 250 with some other external mods including an ecu flash. The 993 is leaps ahead in many ways and the 996 is lightyears ahead. I know the 993 and 964 are a better investment but not nearly as reliable nor as cheap to maintain. I'm honestly not trying to change your mind. Just giving you a real world opinion. When I bought my 996 I was looking at 964s and 993s. That was before the price swing And sometimes I regret it but then I remember maintenance, hvac, performance and reliability.

One big issue a lot of early 964s suffer from is leaks from the crank case seam - Porsche assembled the crankcase halves without a gasket as they believed they had superior machining technology. It surprised no one when they started leaking and the official remedy (fit the berkeleying gasket) is rather expensive as you're talking full engine stripdown to get at it.

IIRC you can fit a whale tail or tea tray rear wing - after all, that's what Porsche did with the RS America. You might need to make a couple more aerodynamic mods if you do to balance out the updated aerodynamics.

The good news is you're looking at a C2, some parts for the C4 are either unobtanium or really expensive by 911 standards. From vague memory, 964s have a fair number of parts that are 964 only and those might well bump up the cost of maintenance.

My buddy who lives out there and who I've connected you with has a 964. Before that he had a 964 Turbo. Before that he had a 3.2. He'd be happy to talk with you about his car. He does quite a bit of his work himself.

I have one. I farm out the valve adjustment. The AC kind of works. It will keep a cool car cool up to the low to mid 90's in the sun, but doesn't have enough capacity to really cool the car back down if you run into the store for 10 minutes on a sunny 90 degree day. Parts aren't terribly expensive except for the ones that are which is true of all generations of 911. People complain that they're heavy and don't drive like older cars, which is true, they drive like what they are, a heavier more GT car. The car has 9 billion miles of wire and grounds all over the damn place and if electrons stop flowing outside certain specs the ecu kind of loses it's mind for a second. There is a relay (the DME) that loves to fail. When that happens you either replace it or just pull it and whack it a few times and then it works. Cary a spare.
They're pretty DIY friendly for lots of the little stuff that nickle and dimes owners that only go to a shop. Small electrical and general maintenance (other than valves) is easy. The car was built to be taken apart and maintained. Remember this (along with the 993) was the last of the 'hand built' 911's that damn near bankrupted Porsche. They simply couldn't afford to build a car like this any more and had to move to automation to survive.
With the way prices have been rising you might be able to buy one, drive it for two years, blow up the motor, and STILL come out ahead.
A whale tail will bolt over the hole that appears when you pull the stock auto raising tail. There are more than a few available.
I personally love mine and feel that $500 for occasional valve adjustments and oil stains in the garage are worth it. I've driven earlier cars and later cars and the 964-993 are at a neat sweet spot between old and new.

Just a little fyi, I get a little peeved when people say the 911 almost bankrupted Porsche. The 944 cost almost the same to manufacture. Its one of the reasons the 911 survived. They were, and are, Porsche's best profit maker.

Well, yes, it's probably more accurate to say Porsche reached a point right about the time of the 964-993 where continuing to make cars the old way wasn't going to work, and they started by modernizing 911 production because that was a clear path to profitability at the time. Regardless, how they screwed cars together changed and working on a 964 is very pleasant in the same way that working on a lot of old cars is. Pieces are held together with screws and bolts that were tightened by human hands. It sometimes takes a little head scratching to figure out how normal size human hands can get to them, but it's possible and rewarding to do it.
Working on my 964 was a markedly different experience from working on my Honda Civic of the same year.

On any 911 purchase. Have a very thorough ppi done. Include checking head studs. Wont be cheap, but as I said, all air cooled 911s will require it. And, fwiw, 964 motors arent as stout as, say, an sc. That doesn't mean they are fragile. Just means they won't see 300k and if you do head studs, a rebuild should be budgeted.

I purchased mine for about $14k before the price run up, and used it as my daily in all weather.

The distributor won't be a problem with a fresh belt if the vent update has been done.

A small point about missing the gasket: it wasn't the case, but the fact that there was no head gaskets. Mine leaked oil badly when purchased, but it was almost entirely other seals (there are lots) that could be replaced with the motor in the car. The heads only seeped slightly when cold. Valve adjustments aren't hard, just time consuming. The bottom ends last forever, the exhaust valve guides seem to wear a bit early.

I have mine apart to replace the headstuds: no small job, but so far the car is worth more than every cent I've spent on it... And it's pretty special.

Unfortunately, my fiesta ST would probably nearly be it's performance equal, but that's progress. ;)

I've heard about the issues with the dual distributor. Could you change over to a stand-alone engine management system and run the ignition that way, eliminating the distributors entirely? I know that would be not cheap but the distributors can be pretty expensive to fix. Just wondering...

I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the 996 unless it has GT3 or Turbo after it. I know you just got one Mark but I have no desire to get one.

The alphabet soup of motor issues they have (IMS, RMS, AOS, etc) plus the low rent interior (unless it has the full leather package) plus the lack of potential appreciation make me shy away.

I like the visceral feeling you get from the older cars. Yes, the hvac is nowhere near as good as the 996. Or a 944 from the same era in fact but if I can get it work ok, I'll be fine. I don't plan on using the car as a DD.

At this point the head gaskets should be taken care of on all of these, although its something a PPI should hopefully identify.

DME relays sounds the same as my old 951's, I always had a spare in the glove box but never needed it.

I'm hoping to have a PPI done to it this week, then drive it Friday once the dizzy has been replaced. If it checks out and it feels snappy when I drive it, I'll probably buy it.

At the price its being offered to me, as long as I don't have to rebuild the drivetrain I should be on the + side....

I've been DDing my 996 for almost 6.5 years and 70k miles. It's my 8th Porsche. Not sure why you're unimpressed. It's much faster on a track than a 993 and a lot easier to live with.

And its the head studs that'll be an issue. Easy 6k plus and that's if it has under 100k. Over that, do a rebuild for 12k+.

I'm unimpressed with the 996 because the build quality of it isn't all that nice. I've seen 1/2 dozen of them catastropically fail on track near me and that's with IMS/RMS etc already having been done.

I also think that they're never really going to appreciate, unless its a GT3 or Turbo. They were made in large numbers, aren't all that good looking (particularly in comparison to the 993 and 997) and haven't been well received.

Don't get me wrong, they're a better driving car than the 993/964 etc and are certainly cheaper to purchase but I don't see it as a replacement for an air cooled 911.

In reply to DWNSHFT:

Some certainly have put a stand-alone system in, but really, with a cheap belt and off the shelf bearings and an afternoon you won't see any issues with the distributor. There are plenty of DIY's online.

The trouble with these cars in my mind is that with the price run-up, it becomes harder to justify molesting it with aftermarket stuff. I wanted to Megasquirt mine, but it would only hurt it's value.

Headstuds are very much DIY-able, though a big task. I disagree with the 'required rebuild' at 100k. There's plenty of documentation that demonstrates that the many "rebuilds" that happen at that mileage are a matter of "while you're in there-itis". Most would be fine with a reseal, head-studs and head rebuild.

There is TONS of support online, along with great parts availability. I'd rather take my chances on head studs (as with all air-oil cooled P-cars) than any of the plethora of frighteningly expensive 996 issues. That said, at least a 996 is easy to put a LS motor in...

Head studs are a 100% issue. Most of the 996 stuff is 5 to 10%. It really has been over blown. Plus a rebuild Oma 964will cost toys lot more than a 996. A top end will run 1500 for heads, 250 gaskets, over 250 for studs and a good grand for while you're there plus a clutch and tranny bits. If you do p/cs that could be another 4k. That's no labor or splitting the case. Most parts will also break more often on a 964than a 996. That's reality. If a reliable weekend 911 is what you want an air cooled with reasonable dad skills the sc is best. Certainly he most reliable. And with an exhaust swap, you'll get 200 bhp and performance similar to an early carrera.

markwemple wrote: And its the head studs that'll be an issue. Easy 6k plus and that's if it has under 100k. Over that, do a rebuild for 12k+.

Funny that number. In the mid-1980s I had my Datsun's carbs done by a Porsche mechanic. Said the engine cost about - surprise - $12k to rebuild yourself. Of course that was 1980s money.

BTW, the 100k rebuild thing is true for most 911s when doing studs. The notion is that the bottom end may have 50 or 100k left but the concern is that the new top end will kill the weaker bottom. That and the cost of splitting the case vs taking the chance is considered unwise.

Ms. Cristina drives a 944 and Satisfaction oozes from her pores, but I just don't know if the same holds true for a 964.

I'm not interested in having/continuing an argument - I encourage the OP to spend lots of time on Pelican and Rennlist to do some homework. Lot's of GREAT information there. I'm glad you like your 996 Mark.

Nathan, set aside your sarchasm. I was imputimg facts. I've owned Porsche for over 30 years and have been a Porsche historian. I've wrked on all generations from the 901 to the 996. Have you owned a 996 or regularly driven one. My 911s, that I've owned since 93 was my DD for almost 5 years and my 996 has been my DD for almost 6.5. Please don't dis me by discussing Internet ptopaganda. Speak from knowledge or defer to those who have it. I'm glad you like your 964. I love air cooled 911s. I'm just realistic about them. I don't get nostalgic. They aren't the best car in the world and can be very expensive. They certainly require much more attention than the 996 and newer cars. Just providing a reality check. I will admit, it would be my last choice for a 911. But that's just me. And yes, I have a lot of experience with them.

The 996 is a better DD, no doubt. Thing is, I'm not looking for a DD, I already have my Cayenne Turbo S for that.

With that responsibility off the table, the 996 just isn't the better car for what I want, which is an air cooled 911 that isn't a slightly over powered beetle the way the SC's and Carrera's are.

I know that's blasphemy for me to say but I really don't enjoy driving the older air cooled 911's. The 964 is just modern enough for me to like the ergonomics and feel of it and still get that air cooled experience.

I've owned lots of old German cars, I know I'll be wrenching on it. That's ok as I can take as long as I need to work on a car that's not in DD use. I like wrenching for the most part, although some jobs I'll probably farm out.

While I'm quite aware that cars aren't investments, experience has shown me that you rarely lose money on an air cooled 911. So that's also part of the equation here for me. While the entry price is higher than a 996, I'm pretty sure I won't lose any money on the 964 and also stand to gain a decent amount....

I think you need to rethink what a slightly over-powered beetle is. At the end of the day, you just need to focus on what you want out of a 911. If it's purely an investment, then an early SWB model. If it's visceral, then an early LWB model. If its a price/performance then I'd go with a 74-77 as they are much better than given credit for (and will get a bhp bump with an exhaust change). If you want to drive and not mess with it, (and yet have the feel of a true 911) then 74-89. If you want the look but more modern then 964. If you want fastest, then 993. The newer, the heavier. Personally, I see no problem dumping a larger engine in an earlier model and even switching to injection and distributorless ignition. Once past a real 911 (which means 89) you loose the feel of a 911. To me, the switch to boosted breaks in 77 took away from braking feel. And I also have no problem with clutch cables. Also, early cars have a lot less wiring. They aren't as slow as you seem to think. The hp is down but so is the weight. Kinda like I'll take a lotus over a corvette any day. I also love the simplicity of older cars, plus the reliability reputation of an sc is deserved. They are the tanks of the air cools. Plus, as I said, you can get 200 bhp out of them. And they are MUCH lighter than a 964. Better feel and less BS. But it is your choice. Oh, and loosing money on an air cooled 911? Ummm, re think that. 996s will be going up. And cost for parts on an air cooled are going way up. Try pricing a 964 distributor (they do break) or a p/c set on a 964, or reverse light switch on a 915 trans or a fuel distributor on a CIS car or a WUR on a CIS car..... You pop a 964 3.6, you could be out 20K. For that 20k, I could pop my 3.6 and have it made into a track ready 4.0. Not kidding. Until you rebuild a a/c 911 you have no idea how many parts are involved or how much time is required to put them together. I do love them, a lot, (hell, I've owned at least one for 31 years) but just giving a reality check. And, at some point I'm dumping a 3.6 into my S with TBI and a distributorless ignition (like the race cars use!!).