lightest route to 400HP

Javelin wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: What kind of weights do those turbo DOHC 4-cylinders have with all of the turbos, intercooler, plumbing, etc though Ben? THAT's the issue (not that they can't make the power or are too expensive). It should be reasonable to find a weight on an S2K drivetrain + turbo kit for example (as that's probably the easiest RWD 4cyl/400HP there is) and then compare it to an N/A 5.0 / T5 combo.

It's not near as heavy as you guys make it out to be. My entire turbo kit, EVERYTHING on my MX6 MIGHT weigh 60lbs. MIGHT. And that's with a cast iron lump of a manifold. Decent exhaust manifolds are quite a bit lighter than this thing.

If you doubt that, i can weigh it next time it all comes off?

Javelin wrote: Forget converting it, just slap the new MSD EFI in place of the carb and go. That's going to be the hot ticket. Light, easy, and EFI.

Bleh, no thanks, just looked at that stuff last night; nearly two grand for throttle body injection? There has to be a better way for less money.

RossD wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Chris_V wrote: Yes, you will get ligher 4 cyls, but they won't make liveable 400 hp. And once you start down the path of iron block turbo 4 cyls, you get back into light pushrod V8 territory in a hurry.

HA! Bull. Turbo Busa will make that no problem.

When I did a quick search for the output of a turbo Busa kit on race fuel, I only found a measley 265 hp. Can you give a link? I must be missing something...

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=turbo+busa+dyno&pbx=1&oq=turbo+busa+dyno&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=30l2917l0l3077l15l13l0l1l1l2l265l1940l0.12.1l13l0&gs_l=hp.3..0i15.30l2917l0l3077l15l13l0l1l1l2l265l1940l0j12j1l13l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=dc23e64bf9f67c96&biw=1280&bih=885

I'm not convinced a turbo Busa motor would be the way to go with this... but they'll make power. Way up in RPM, better suited for a bike or a Geo Metro anyways.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: It's not near as heavy as you guys make it out to be. My entire turbo kit, EVERYTHING on my MX6 MIGHT weigh 60lbs. MIGHT. And that's with a cast iron lump of a manifold. Decent exhaust manifolds are quite a bit lighter than this thing. If you doubt that, i can weigh it next time it all comes off?

Highly doubt it. I rebuilt turbo diesels when I was in the Coast Guard and built numerous Ford 2.3T Lima's including an honest 350HP one. Turbo stuff weighs a lot, especially cast iron manifolds, the turbo itself, and intercooler cores. Add in extra oil (and water if it's a water-cooled turbo and/or A2W intercooler) and you are easily over 60Lbs additional, even with a FWD style setup with short pipes everywhere.

pres589 wrote:

Javelin wrote: Forget converting it, just slap the new MSD EFI in place of the carb and go. That's going to be the hot ticket. Light, easy, and EFI.

Bleh, no thanks, just looked at that stuff last night; nearly two grand for throttle body injection? There *has* to be a better way for less money.

I dunno. It seems pretty cool to me. It's light, I don't have to convert my intake to accept injectors or buy a new one, there's no fuel rails, I can keep the same linkages, etc. It's not like a TBI (no injectors in the venturi), more like a pseduo-port? The price is a little steep, but compared to all of the other stuff you have to buy to convert a carb'd motor? I mean yeah, it's not the best solution for motors where EFI exists (LT1, 5.0, etc), but for something like an AMC, Buick, Pontiac, or Mopar it's a great idea.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

I'm missing something, 356HP is the most in your links provided, and that's absolute peak at eleventy-billion RPM's. The Busa-based V8 makes 400 (with like 250TQ and $$$$$) N/A though. Regardless, even if the engine could do it, what the heck do you use for a trans? A JW Ultrabell with a Powerglide??!?

93EXCivic wrote: HA! Bull. Turbo Busa will make that no problem.

For how long?

9-second squirts on the dragstrip (I saw a reportedly 450whp 'Busa run only a half second quicker than a stock one... but 50mph faster, so maybe only 2-3 seconds at that actual power level) or 20 minutes of track time?

Big difference. Biiiiig difference. What is the OP looking for?

And what is the engine going in again?

Javelin wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: I'm missing something, 356HP is the most in your links provided, and that's absolute peak at eleventy-billion RPM's. The Busa-based V8 makes 400 (with like 250TQ and $$$$$) N/A though. Regardless, even if the engine could do it, what the heck do you use for a trans? A JW Ultrabell with a Powerglide??!?

Yeah you're missing something or maybe the link is getting messed up? Very first video at the top is 636whp.

But like i said in the post you replied to... i don't really like the Busa idea either.

Javelin wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: It's not near as heavy as you guys make it out to be. My entire turbo kit, EVERYTHING on my MX6 MIGHT weigh 60lbs. MIGHT. And that's with a cast iron lump of a manifold. Decent exhaust manifolds are quite a bit lighter than this thing. If you doubt that, i can weigh it next time it all comes off?

*Highly* doubt it. I rebuilt turbo diesels when I was in the Coast Guard and built numerous Ford 2.3T Lima's including an honest 350HP one. Turbo stuff weighs a lot, especially cast iron manifolds, the turbo itself, and intercooler cores. Add in extra oil (and water if it's a water-cooled turbo and/or A2W intercooler) and you are easily over 60Lbs additional, even with a FWD style setup with short pipes everywhere.

I've also had my turbo setup off my MX6 no less than 5 times, and i put most of it together from scratch.

My turbo weighs maybe 15lbs at most. The manifold another 10-15lbs. Wastgate weighs 2-3lbs. BOV maybe.... half a pound?

Evo8 intercooler less than 10lbs. Aluminum intercooler piping maybe 3lbs.

No extra oil or water necessary, it draws off engine supply, unless you're talking about the extra couple ounces that sit in the lines?

That's all ~43lbs assuming worst case scenario, and i could easily trim 5lbs off of it.

I'll weigh it next time for you. Wanna make a friendly bet on it? I'll put $30 that says it's under 60lbs.

Or i could weigh mndsm's turbo kit for his MX6 that's sitting in my dining room? It's complete save for intercooler and intercooler piping. It's even a bigger turbo than mine, but doesn't have a cast iron manifold, it's a stainless steel log-style.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Ah, I found that one now. Not very convincing, you can't see the numbers on the screen (could be Newtons, kW, hampsters, etc) and there's 2 graphs at least, with one at 1/2 to 2/3 the top one, with no way of knowing what the bike was.

Show me build thread / dyno chart / ET slip type proof, not fuzzy YouTube / BigFoot video proof.

Javelin wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Ah, I found that one now. Not very convincing, you can't see the numbers on the screen (could be Newtons, kW, hampsters, etc) and there's 2 graphs at least, with one at 1/2 to 2/3 the top one, with no way of knowing what the bike was. Show me build thread / dyno chart / ET slip type proof, not fuzzy YouTube / BigFoot video proof.

Meh, i really don't care enough about that option. We'll leave it up to 93excivic. It's out there, but i don't support the Busa motor idea.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Dude, cast iron is 450Lbs per cubic foot. That's some dense material. How small is your turbo that the exhaust housing alone isn't at least 10Lbs?

I'll bet you a Hot Wheels car (your choice, and I have good uns) that your entire turbo system is over 60Lbs.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

What about the S2K + turbo option. Weight?

Or maybe SR20T? Weight?

Javelin wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: What about the S2K + turbo option. Weight? Or maybe SR20T? Weight?

Dunno... F20C/F22C was already ruled out, didn't bother.

The SR20 can die in a fire, i'm not looking that E36 M3 up.

Javelin wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Dude, cast iron is 450Lbs per cubic foot. That's some dense material. How small is your turbo that the exhaust housing alone isn't at least 10Lbs? I'll bet you a Hot Wheels car (your choice, and I have good uns) that your entire turbo system is over 60Lbs.

My exhaust housing probably IS 10lbs... but the center section is small. The compressor housing isn't cast iron. That's why i said 10-15lbs. It's probably 15lbs. It's just a factory MKiii Supra turbo.

I'll one-up your bet... (We'll still go for hot wheels) I'll even include my exhaust and wastegate dump in the "under 60lbs" bet.

Bring it to the Post Office. Using a SWMBO bathroom scale is cheating!

Looks like an F20C is around 326-328 for just the motor, but complete. The best guess I can come up with for a light turbo kit is a 56Lb additional weight quoted for one of the high-end kits (nice header, modern turbo, A2A IC, forged BOV, etc). So we're at 384 plus the boost controller, wiring, and extras. Say 390Lbs total being pessimistic.

Assuming we use the same trans no matter what...

A Ford 302 is 475Lbs complete in all-iron, carburetor'd, 1960';s form. The 5.0 EFI is 425Lbs also fully dressed (all iron still except the intake). The Explorer version (aluminum heads, EDIS, smaller intakes) is 385Lbs.

So it's pretty much a wash there. A modern, alloy head 5.0 is about the same as a turbo F20C tit-for-tat. The 5.0 could lose more in a rebuild and the T5 might weigh less, but the F20 can go lower, too (flywheel, pulleys come to mind).

LSx is 385-425 depending on source. I imagine it might be a Gen III/Gen IV small-bore/big-bore thing?

I just weighed the cast iron manifold I have for a Civic about 10lbs.

I have a winner...

http://032b0eb.netsolhost.com/site/turbonique.htm

oh wait...that's from 1965

Javelin wrote: Looks like an F20C is around 326-328 for just the motor, but complete. The best guess I can come up with for a light turbo kit is a 56Lb additional weight quoted for one of the high-end kits (nice header, modern turbo, A2A IC, forged BOV, etc). So we're at 384 plus the boost controller, wiring, and extras. Say 390Lbs total being pessimistic. Assuming we use the same trans no matter what... A Ford 302 is 475Lbs complete in all-iron, carburetor'd, 1960';s form. The 5.0 EFI is 425Lbs also fully dressed (all iron still except the intake). The Explorer version (aluminum heads, EDIS, smaller intakes) is 385Lbs. So it's pretty much a wash there. A modern, alloy head 5.0 is about the same as a turbo F20C tit-for-tat. The 5.0 could lose more in a rebuild and the T5 might weigh less, but the F20 can go lower, too (flywheel, pulleys come to mind). LSx is 385-425 depending on source. I imagine it might be a Gen III/Gen IV small-bore/big-bore thing?

So since that setup was quoted at 56lbs shipping weight including packaging, does that mean i already win the bet?

Why would we be using the same trans, though? A T5 probably DWARFS an AZ6.

I'm still liking the 2zz depending on if there's an easy RWD trans to bolt to it. It's significantly lighter than an F20C.

PS: what's a forged bov?

For reference, mndsm's turbo kit had a shipping weight of 35lbs. That's a turbo (bigger than mine), turbo manifold, wastegate, and wastegate dump.

Intercooler/piping/bov setup will be 15lbs or less, and his entire exhaust will not weigh more than 3lbs.

Where did I say shipping weight? That was before and after install as measured by an end user. And since that's all high-end light stuff and yours is, well, iron,

I said same trans as any non-V8 is likely at a disadvantage. T5's are light. Aluminum case, internal rod, hydraulic or cable clutch. There's like nothing to them. It's definitely lighter than both an FB RX-7 trans and an FC RX-7 trans. Probably lighter than an NA Miata trans as well judging by how hard that one was to shove back in...

That 253Lb 2ZZ quote was engine only, no accessories, flywheel, etc. Add all that back in an it's probably 300 realistically. Another 50-60 for the turbo get up and you still aren't much lighter than a stock 5.0.

PS - T5's are 75lbs!

Javelin wrote: Where did I say shipping weight? That was before and after install as measured by an end user. And since that's all high-end light stuff and yours is, well, iron, I said same trans as any non-V8 is likely at a disadvantage. T5's are *light*. Aluminum case, internal rod, hydraulic or cable clutch. There's like nothing to them. It's definitely lighter than both an FB RX-7 trans and an FC RX-7 trans. Probably lighter than an NA Miata trans as well judging by how hard that one was to shove back in... That 253Lb 2ZZ quote was engine only, no accessories, flywheel, etc. Add all that back in an it's probably 300 realistically. Another 50-60 for the turbo get up and you still aren't much lighter than a stock 5.0.

I'm betting the 2zz weight was dressed no fluids. Every site i'm seeing is saying 115kg as installed. That means... dressed. I know for a fact (since i've horsed both around) that it's significantly lighter than an F20C.

Fun fact: fully assembled F2Ts only weigh 42lbs more than fully assembled F2s.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'm still liking the 2zz depending on if there's an easy RWD trans to bolt to it.

I'm reaching here, but there is an adapter plate that facilitates using the E153 out of an MR2 Turbo in an Elise/Exige.

The MR2 is using a 3S-GTE. The 3S-GE came in the Altezza in a longitudinal configuration.

Assuming that 3S-GTEs and 3S-GEs share a bellhousing pattern, there seems to be a somewhat contrived possibility of using a 2ZZ bolted to an AZ6. I might just be really tired though.