new cars are faster, more efficient, have more mechanical grip, are more reliable

and yet I keep finding myself enjoying chassis for the early 90s more. Why is this?

For every engaging, rewarding to drive new car, I can name another that's 20 years old, the new car will spank it in every way, yet the older model will still yield the same amount of smiles and enjoyment.

It is that cars from the era are at the bottom of the depreciation curve and I can get 10 for the cost of one of the handful of great driver's cars available today as new?

The trend seems to be that as cars become more polished, they have less character.

what did you drive when you were 16? any nostalgia going on?

That, and the price, is my problem.

In the past you had to DRIVE the car, now you just press the start button and make suggestions.

Ask a pilot if he'd rather fly a 747 or the latest Airbus computer controlled by wire thingy.

In reply to Gearheadotaku:
Interesting comparison. Pilotbraden should be along soon.

nderwater wrote: The trend seems to be that as cars become more polished, they have less character.

Yep.

As enthusiasts who enjoy the "mechanicalness" of cars, there's further and further separation and isolation of the driver.

Yes the newer stuff scores higher on paper. faster, efficient, safer, etc.

Some of the soul is lost though.

I think you can take the cost out of it, there's just something satisfying about the noises, the feel, etc. Matching a rev and moving that shift lever and "feeling" it slip together, while heel toeing and physically moving a throttle linkage, etc. You're a direct commander of the mechanical symphony, and it won't do everything right for you.

Gearheadotaku wrote: In the past you had to DRIVE the car, now you just press the start button and make suggestions.

I dare you to do that with my new MINI. You won't get far if that's all you're doing. Hell, even my Volt is as involving as my '98 BMW was.

I'm not sure that i'm surprised that a new Mini is as engaging to drive as a late 90s luxobarge.

Real cars died after 1979

In reply to rcutclif:

I drove a 90 Toyota pickup, 2wd, longbed, then I purchased a 72 Challenger 440, 6 pack 4 on the floor. Pre-89 Porsche 911s (and 912s) are about the most enjoyable and engaging cars to drive, though are slower then a current V6 Camry. That being said I find even early 90s Mazda BG chassis, Volvo 240s and of course NA miatas quite enjoyable.

As long as we're dumping on new cars...

My biggest problem with them isn't the aesthetics, or the price, or the lack of "soul" (whatever the heck that means). It's the visibility. I don't drive a modern car very often- my daily driver is a 1980 Mercedes- but when I do (usually a rental, or someone else's car) I'm struck by just how little I can actually see. I'm used to being able to pick out the corners of whatever I'm driving pretty easily. I've driven a lot of older (pre 1980's) cars, and all but a few of them have been relatively "easy" cars to drive in that regard.

But put me behind the wheel of something like a Honda Crosstour, and..holy crap, it's like I'm sitting in a hole. Everyone likes to blame smartpohones and texting for accidents, and I think that's true to an extent...now couple driver inattention with poor visibility, blind spots that could swallow a Fiat, and these hugely tall beltlines, small greenhouses, and bloated body lines, and it's no wonder I find myself honking at someone every other day for drifting over into my lane.

Unfortunately, sitting in a hole is "safe", so I expect the trend of cars resembling tanks to continue. In 30 years, I expect we'll all be driving through little slits in the windshield, with cameras pointed everywhere and little monitors inside to show us what we're supposed to avoid crashing into.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

Exactly. I get paranoid and freaked out with the blind spots a miata with a soft top gives me. Put me in a new car, and i damn near have a nervous breakdown. I can't handle it.

I own a 2003 MINI and a 1991 VW GTI. The MINI will win in every category that you can measure, but the VW is more engaging and fun to drive IMHO.As for outward visibility the VW wins and my Astro is wonderful. The window sill is barely above my waist in it. I can look down and see the lines between lanes.

In reply to drummerfromdefleopard:

I still don't think people actually live until they have a 930T step out on them......

Swank Force One wrote: In reply to volvoclearinghouse: Exactly. I get paranoid and freaked out with the blind spots a miata with a soft top gives me. Put me in a new car, and i damn near have a nervous breakdown. I can't handle it.

Its actually a benefit. If you can't see/hear the people you are cutting off, you don't feel nearly as bad about doing it.

rcutclif wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: In reply to volvoclearinghouse: Exactly. I get paranoid and freaked out with the blind spots a miata with a soft top gives me. Put me in a new car, and i damn near have a nervous breakdown. I can't handle it.

Its actually a benefit. If you can't see/hear the people you are cutting off, you don't feel nearly as bad about doing it.

Also, do you really want to see that semi that is about to squish you?

Engaging is certainly a thing. I sometimes realize that when I am slowing down on my motorcycle, I am rev matching with my right hand, braking with my right hand, clutching with my left had, steering with both hands and my body (balance), breaking with my right foot, shifting with my left foot, looking around with my head and all the time fully exposed to the smells sites and sounds of the the wind / elements. It's almost strange I stay on the bike, but I also realize I am FULLY involved in the process.

It's like many other things, if you don't exercise it, it gets flabby (mind and body). Driving a older vehicle is a form of exercise and exercise is good for you.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: As long as we're dumping on new cars... My biggest problem with them isn't the aesthetics, or the price, or the lack of "soul" (whatever the heck that means). It's the visibility. I don't drive a modern car very often- my daily driver is a 1980 Mercedes- but when I do (usually a rental, or someone else's car) I'm struck by just how little I can actually see. I'm used to being able to pick out the corners of whatever I'm driving pretty easily. I've driven a lot of older (pre 1980's) cars, and all but a few of them have been relatively "easy" cars to drive in that regard. But put me behind the wheel of something like a Honda Crosstour, and..holy crap, it's like I'm sitting in a hole. Everyone likes to blame smartpohones and texting for accidents, and I think that's true to an extent...now couple driver inattention with poor visibility, blind spots that could swallow a Fiat, and these hugely tall beltlines, small greenhouses, and bloated body lines, and it's no wonder I find myself honking at someone every other day for drifting over into my lane. Unfortunately, sitting in a hole is "safe", so I expect the trend of cars resembling tanks to continue. In 30 years, I expect we'll all be driving through little slits in the windshield, with cameras pointed everywhere and little monitors inside to show us what we're supposed to avoid crashing into.

I'm usually a "defend new cars" guy, but this is 100% dead on. New cars have terrible visibility because of the thick pillars and high sills. Some are worse than others, but it is a major issue, IMO. And it's part of the reason I drive a pickup.

Things like blind-spot warnings and rearview cameras help, but you still can't beat a nice, open greenhouse.

Tom_Spangler wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: As long as we're dumping on new cars... My biggest problem with them isn't the aesthetics, or the price, or the lack of "soul" (whatever the heck that means). It's the visibility.

I'm usually a "defend new cars" guy, but this is 100% dead on. New cars have terrible visibility because of the thick pillars and high sills. Some are worse than others, but it is a major issue, IMO. And it's part of the reason I drive a pickup. Things like blind-spot warnings and rearview cameras help, but you still can't beat a nice, open greenhouse.

Bingo. And I'd be willing to be this is why so many people buy SUVs and trucks today- they're just easier to see out of. Heck, I just bought a '91 Suburban, and the thing is easier to drive and see around than my wife's 2000 Jimmy. (Yes, I know that's an SUV, too, but newer cars are worse.)

If I were a tinfoil hat crowd member, I'd say the automakers are intentionally making SUVs easier to see out of, and thus more pleasant to drive, in order to persuade people to buy them over a car that feels like sitting in a hole.

Depends. If I am carting a bucketload of kids across the eastern seaboard, give me that newish minivan. If I am attacking turn 3, I'll want that thin A pillared noisy beast from yesteryear.

New cars (like, from ~2010 on) have really good mirror coverage to make up for the more restricted greenhouse. I feel like it is actually safer since you can move your eyes much faster than turning your head.

If you're used to racing with a Hans / halo seat it's more or less the same idea.

My classic SE-R had terrible mirrors compared to anything from this decade.

I have to say my G37 isn't bad to see out of. I also found the new GTI easy to see out of. I'm taller though and that helps.

Honestly, I found the new GTI with the performance pack very engaging to drive. One of the best ones that I've driven since I drove the R53 S Mini. It's not as analog as the MR2 and less hoonable. Traction control really spoils the fun sometimes. Too many nannies.

I have a copy of Car Life magazine from 1961. There was a letter to the editor from a woman complaining about the family car; her husband bought it in 1929, and refused to replace it with anything newer because he thought new cars weren't as good as his old one.

In that case, the car in question was 31 years old. I thought it was pretty funny, but then I remembered I'm driving around in a 29 year old car.

Swank Force One wrote: I'm not sure that i'm surprised that a new Mini is as engaging to drive as a late 90s luxobarge.

Um, I ws saying my VOLt is as engaging as a modified BMW that was very agile. The MINI was in response to his "push a button and make a suggestion" being all you did in a new car. The 6 speed manual, very agile, turbo MINI as engaging as any older car. No, I don't have a manual choke, but really? Do we really want to go there?a

volvoclearinghouse wrote: As long as we're dumping on new cars... My biggest problem with them isn't the aesthetics, or the price, or the lack of "soul" (whatever the heck that means). It's the visibility. I don't drive a modern car very often- my daily driver is a 1980 Mercedes- but when I do (usually a rental, or someone else's car) I'm struck by just how little I can actually see. I'm used to being able to pick out the corners of whatever I'm driving pretty easily. I've driven a lot of older (pre 1980's) cars, and all but a few of them have been relatively "easy" cars to drive in that regard. But put me behind the wheel of something like a Honda Crosstour, and..holy crap, it's like I'm sitting in a hole. Everyone likes to blame smartpohones and texting for accidents, and I think that's true to an extent...now couple driver inattention with poor visibility, blind spots that could swallow a Fiat, and these hugely tall beltlines, small greenhouses, and bloated body lines, and it's no wonder I find myself honking at someone every other day for drifting over into my lane. Unfortunately, sitting in a hole is "safe", so I expect the trend of cars resembling tanks to continue. In 30 years, I expect we'll all be driving through little slits in the windshield, with cameras pointed everywhere and little monitors inside to show us what we're supposed to avoid crashing into.

I drove the twin to this for a few years.

I also built cars like this:

New cars have excellent visibility in comparison. Obviously no one here has ever driven a modern supercar, either...