new Small Pickup coming to the US?

bludroptop wrote: I did. There is a 2013 VW TDI in my driveway.

We are talking about trucks. Unless you bought a Tiguan or Toureg?

accordionfolder wrote: I base my tow ratings on the oversea number. My forester was rated at ... Less than a ton and I pulled over a ton with it through the mountains.

Explain that to DOT when they pull you over. I'm sure that would go well

Driven5 wrote: The people disagreeing with you, disagree with you.

Sure People are entitled to their opinions, even if they are stupid or misguided. Not all thoughts are equal

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In reply to Zomby Woof: I wouldn't be so quick to be cocky. You forget that there are also businesses that want small trucks.

No there aren't.

kreb wrote: This whole dialogue reminds me of the old truck vs. car-based SUV thing. 80 percent of SUV users are better off with a lightweight SUV. They handle better, stop better, get better fuel economy, et cetera.

You mean about how the market for car-based SUV's just wasn't big enough to be worth pursuing because people would never accept them due to their reduced off-road and towing capabilities? Yeah, I was just talking to a coworker about the same thing.

For hauling the sort of yard waste / landscaping supplies that I typically use the C10 for, a trucklet like that would be pretty handy. There are a lot of types of loads that aren't especially heavy, but are bulky or messy enough that you don't want to carry them with a car.

Driven5 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: While there are probably 20-30k people just like you out there, that's still a very small market for a truck.

Yet that's still apprently a big enough market to justify the creation and existence of the Flex.

The Flex is a LOT different than a pick up truck. Unless the truck is totally based on a shared platform, that is.

The Flex is virtually identical to the Explorer, in terms of all of the expensive parts. Very similar to the MKX, darned similar to the Tuarus/MKS, and similar to the Edge.

So if we made a truck off of that, it could support a 30k market and not stress the plant out too much for not making enough.

For the most part, a plant needs to make at least 100-150k units a year to support a mass market kind of price (most massive plants make 250-300k). The more major body sections, the more expensive- typical trucks are 3 parts- cab, bed, frame. So it costs very similar money to make a Ranger as it does an F150- the biggest difference is the mass of raw materials needed- which is a lot less than many may realize. That's the big reason that the small truck market has shrunk so much- just so little money to be made for that much effort.

Unibody trucks offer a big cost advantage. But it's still like making a mid-sized car. The biggest difference is typically two less doors, and half as much interior stuff. Unless it's a 4 seater truck, then it's virtually identical. And since the smallest trucks are on the order of the Fusion/accord/camry- that's the cost I would expect- mid $20k.

A pick up based off of a 500 would be pretty pointless.

alfadriver wrote: ...Unless the truck is totally based on a shared platform, that is.

Imagine that...Platform sharing...What a wild concept.

Driven5 wrote:

kreb wrote: This whole dialogue reminds me of the old truck vs. car-based SUV thing. 80 percent of SUV users are better off with a lightweight SUV. They handle better, stop better, get better fuel economy, et cetera.

You mean about how the market for car-based SUV's just wasn't big enough to be worth pursuing because people would never accept them due to their reduced off-road and towing capabilities? Yeah, I was just talking to a coworker about the same thing.

It's not really about accpeting (all of F's SUV's (except Expedition) are car based right now, and through July 1, there have been over 300k car based SUV's sold- evenly distributed between Escapes and Edge/Flex/Explorers).

It's about finding the right platform, and price that people will still buy.

A great unibody platform would be the Edge/Flex/Explorer, but in no way shape or form it will sell less than $25k.

Could be on an Escape, but then towing will be totally limited to 3500lb. Possible for $20k, but that would be pushing it.

Again, we are still talking the mid $20k range for a small truck. Which is very close to the bottom end of the mid and full size truck.

I hope they can do it- variety is a good thing. I just don't expect it to be cheap.

Driven5 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: ...Unless the truck is totally based on a shared platform, that is.

Imagine that...Platform sharing...What a wild concept.

It STILL will cost $25k.

Not sure what that really solves.

In reply to alfadriver:

You should keep a copy of all this for the next time (and the next time... and the next time...) we have this discussion... it'll save you some typing...

The makers of non-US market small pickups have a similar quandry: weighing the cost of certifying a small truck for the US market against the potential sales at a certain price point. It's a risk and bean counters aren't the gambling types when the chips (hard to pin-point market) are stacked against them.

Threads like this don't help the cause - most folks here want a cheap, small truck. Small isn't so hard, but that 'cheap' part - notsomuch when the truck needs to adhere to US safety and emissions standards. Damn near impossible when the 'chicken tax' is added - so I wouldn't count on EVER seeing a 2-seat foreign truck again until that goes away.

In reply to Ian F:

Even if the chicken tax goes away, I'm not so sure we will see a big influx of small trucks. But instead of a 100-150k goal, it will at least go down to 30-50k, which helps a lot.

Certainly not cheap trucks.

HiTempguy wrote: A Dodge Ram 1/2 ton ecodiesel gets that on the highway with way more capability. The vehicle you want is already available, at the price you demand and yet you haven't bought it.

Something tells me this is pointless, but WTF - slow day at the salt mines...

The thread is about small pickups. I've had my share of them. I've also had a F250 and a F350. I do not need a truck, but I would like to have one if there was an option available that appealed to my taste and (admittedly subjective) desires.

I said that if VW offered the Amarok in the US, I would buy one. I wouldn't buy a Dodge with your money. That's my prerogative and you can call it "stupid or misguided" all you wish but it doesn't change how I would spend my money.

People buy vehicles for all sorts of reasons - few of them rational. We've already established that most truck owners don't need the functional capabilities of their vehicles. I'm a German car snob and I like VWs. There has been at least one VW in my immediate household since 1965. If VW sold the berkeleying truck in the US, I would buy one.

Alfadriver says that there aren't enough people like me to make it viable in the marketplace - I accept that argument. That doesn't make me want one less.

Just because I'm in the minority doesn't make me stupid. Based upon my observation, quite the opposite is true.

Have a nice argument - I'm out.

bludroptop wrote: Alfadriver says that there aren't enough people like me to make it viable in the marketplace - I accept that argument. That doesn't make me want one less. Just because I'm in the minority doesn't make me stupid. Based upon my observation, quite the opposite is true. Have a nice argument - I'm out.

One correction- I don't think there is a big enough market. Not sure. I am sure that you are not the only one that would do exactly what you would do, and that is perfectly valid.

But is it enough? that's where I don't think so.....

(FWIW, I was totally wrong about the size of the Turbo V6 F150 truck market- by about 5x)

alfadriver wrote:

Driven5 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: ...Unless the truck is totally based on a shared platform, that is.

It STILL will cost $25k. Not sure what that really solves.

Not sure what it doesn't solve of peoples actual complaints against full-size trucks in this thread. How many people so far have actually cited the $25k F-150 base price as the (or even 'a') primary reason that one is not already parked in their driveway?

In reply to Driven5:

Why spend $25k on a small truck if I can get a big truck for $27?

And not enough people who will buy the smaller one to support a real market.

That's why.

When it was $19k vs. $27k, that was a different story. But that time has passed, and more small trucks have left the market than have been added.

If there are enough people, everyone would try to be part of it- especially Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Dodge, and GM, since it would probably lead to more full size truck sales. But that's not what is happening.

If this thread had been titled "Fiat is making a new Dodge Rampage" the discourse would likely be different.

Talking about trucks is a little bit like talking about motor oil. If you ask 100 people you will get 100 different opinions on what's best. For me this is interesting and I could see an application for it. I like small. I don't like big. I wouldn't drive a full size truck if you gave it to me for a year to drive for free. I don't like even riding in my friend's full size truck. That's me. I don't need to tow, I don't need to put full size sheets of plywood in the back. I don't want big. Lots of people do and lots need a monster truck for fun/work, whatever. To each his own. This little truck could be cool but the market traditionally doesn't support these types of vehicles.

The key to it's success is cost. $18K decently equipped good, mid 20s bad. Kia/Hyundai could do it cost wise I don't know if Fiat can. Although Chrysler is cranking out some unbelievable (leasing) pricing right now on it's full size Rams. I have a friend who just leased a $45K full size Ram for $230 a month. Huh? What? How can Chrysler stay in business doing that kind of thing?

Lastly, people ask "why would you buy a small truck for $25K if you can get a full size for the same price or slightly more"? Because some of us just don't want/need big. We want it to fit in the garage or fit in a regular car space or get 20 mpg or................ you get the idea. We just don't want to lug around an extra ton of weight just because it's the same price. It's like saying why buy a size 10 shoe when for the same price you can get a size 13. Well not exactly the same thing. Anyway, the debate goes on.

How can Chrysler stay in business doing that kind of thing?

They can't. The automakers have short memories.

Zomby Woof wrote:

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In reply to Zomby Woof: I wouldn't be so quick to be cocky. You forget that there are also businesses that want small trucks.

No there aren't.

I beg to differ, but let's agree to disagree.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote:

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In reply to Zomby Woof: I wouldn't be so quick to be cocky. You forget that there are also businesses that want small trucks.

No there aren't.

I beg to differ, but let's agree to disagree.

How about not enough to justify making a small truck?

If there was a market and money could be made, someone would be.

JohnRW1621 wrote: My advise would be to place this truck into existing Fiat dealerships and take on Subaru. I do wonder how the Fiat dealerships keep it going. There can not be that many sales

Probably regionally-dependent. I see 500s all the time around here. I probably saw 5 or 6 of them on my 20 mile commute home today, including an Abarth. They seem to be even more popular for people in the city (I'm in the 'burbs).

alfadriver wrote:

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote:

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In reply to Zomby Woof: I wouldn't be so quick to be cocky. You forget that there are also businesses that want small trucks.

No there aren't.

I beg to differ, but let's agree to disagree.

How about not enough to justify making a small truck? If there was a market and money could be made, someone would be.

Really? As I remember, almost the entire last run of Rangers went to Fleets.

alfadriver wrote: Could be on an Escape, but then towing will be totally limited to 3500lb. Possible for $20k, but that would be pushing it. Again, we are still talking the mid $20k range for a small truck. Which is very close to the bottom end of the mid and full size truck.

I have a tow rig and tow a car hauler. That said, I'm not sure why everyone is so hung up on towing ability. If I take away the guys I know who tow their racecars (really, a very niche community), I can think of a few hundred friends/relatives/etc who have NEVER towed a trailer bigger than a little utility trailer (~1k lbs). The only people who need over 3500lbs towing are people who haul cars around (a VERY small proportion of the populace), and people who tow big campers (also a VERY small proportion of the populace).

I have a need for 5k towing capacity, but I'll be the first to admit that the overwhelming percentage of the population doesn't, even the ones who act like they do. I am not the market for that Fiat truck, but I certainly think there is a market for it, especially in urban areas.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Driven5: Why spend $25k on a small truck if I can get a big truck for $27?

perhaps because if you're someone who doesn't want a big truck, the price of the big truck is totally irrelevant....because you don't want a big truck.

Hey, why buy a Miata $25k if you can buy an Accord for $30k. The Accord has more power, has more doors, bigger trunk, and more space.....right?

alfadriver wrote: If there was a market and money could be made, someone would be.

Often said...And often wrong. Most people seem to think you can can make a product for the market, and whether or not you make money is determined by whether or not there is enough of a market. But just as often somebody who manages to comes up with the right product for the market will succeed with the same market where (many) others have failed. In fact many of the most successful products ever made, did so by creating a market for themselves from people that didn't even know they had a demand for the product. That is the very nature of innovation.