The thing I am curious about is....NASCAR. I can't see a Corvette being the representative model...that just won't happen. I don't think the Malibu is long for the world either.
They said they are ending the Gen6 car. Maybe a Gen7 is being developed (either as an EV or ICE) and they are keeping a very tight lid on it.
In reply to FSP_ZX2 :
Maybe the Gen7 will be a little more SUV shaped and it'll be all Blazers and Explorers and 4Runners.
I haven't seen any data to confirm, but I'd bet that promoting Camaros only hurts GM's fleet fuel economy scores. They can put the same big v8 in a vehicle classified as a truck and it's fine.
They're also two door cars with tiny back seats and small trunks. Put a car seat in one? Do a family road trip in one? Haul more than a couple of bags of groceries in one? Not likely. So they fall into the 'Toy Car' category, which limits you to rich people and/or people without kids at home. With new car prices what they are, most buyers aren't going to have the option of an expensive toy car and a more practical vehicle.
I do find it funny that the Camaro was aimed squarely at the "lap times above all else" crowd, and that crowd really didn't find it very compelling...
Gotta respect the fact that the Camaro came with 4 different engines and each one of them could be had with a real 6-speed manual. Apparently that wasn't enough. Interesting to note that Ford dropped the manual for the new Ecoboost Mustang and the Challenger (AFAIK) never offered a manual with anything less than the V8.
STM317 said:I haven't seen any data to confirm, but I'd bet that promoting Camaros only hurts GM's fleet fuel economy scores. They can put the same big v8 in a vehicle classified as a truck and it's fine.
They're also two door cars with tiny back seats and small trunks. Put a car seat in one? Do a family road trip in one? Haul more than a couple of bags of groceries in one? Not likely. So they fall into the 'Toy Car' category, which limits you to rich people and/or people without kids at home. With new car prices what they are, most buyers aren't going to have the option of an expensive toy car and a more practical vehicle.
Not everybody has kids. The back seat in my Mustang is just the right size for a dog bed. I have plenty of room for two people and luggage. And the ecoboost actually gets good gas mileage. The Mustang is my practical vehicle. The Miata with no back seat and a smaller trunk, is my race car. I'm not rich.
Come to think of it, they sold 6 cylinder three speed Mustangs for cheap starting in 1965. It was a nice replacement for the economy compacts the sold at that time.
GM did what they do best on this one. Design by committee and terrible advertising. Maybe if they featured it in one of those terrible "real people" ads, they could have gotten an extra 200 sales out of it.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:STM317 said:I haven't seen any data to confirm, but I'd bet that promoting Camaros only hurts GM's fleet fuel economy scores. They can put the same big v8 in a vehicle classified as a truck and it's fine.
They're also two door cars with tiny back seats and small trunks. Put a car seat in one? Do a family road trip in one? Haul more than a couple of bags of groceries in one? Not likely. So they fall into the 'Toy Car' category, which limits you to rich people and/or people without kids at home. With new car prices what they are, most buyers aren't going to have the option of an expensive toy car and a more practical vehicle.
Not everybody has kids. The back seat in my Mustang is just the right size for a dog bed. I have plenty of room for two people and luggage. And the ecoboost actually gets good gas mileage. The Mustang is my practical vehicle. The Miata with no back seat and a smaller trunk, is my race car. I'm not rich.
I said (highlighted in bold above) that they limited their buyers to people that could afford an extra toy car, or people without kids that could use it as a daily. Sounds like you fit into the second category.
In reply to calteg :
The ones that knew about it did find it compelling. Its a relatively small market and not everyone knew about it. It was interesting to see what the 1LE was cross shopped with on the 6Gen forums. Routinely cross shopped with M and P cars, and GT350s. A big deal for potential track use what GM was better than the other manufacturers about covering failures on the track
Outisde of sight lines, valvetrain failures, and a useless back seat it is an exceptional car.
I think it falls under standard GM practices of building a good car, and not telling anyone about it. Magazines and people in the know will love it, and no one else ever thinks about it.
After this goes away there will be no reason to go to a GM dealer besides the vette and trucks (and truck based SUVS). Nothing else in their line is compelling compared to its competition. Im a big GM guy and we just bought a car for the wife. We were looking at everything from large cars to SUVs of all sizes, nothing at GM was good enough to even warrant a test drive.
Edit because of HHR: and some of the cadillacs and V cars (forgot about those)
Opti said:In reply to calteg :
The ones that knew about it did find it compelling. Its a relatively small market and not everyone knew about it. It was interesting to see what the 1LE was cross shopped with on the 6Gen forums. Routinely cross shopped with M and P cars, and GT350s. A big deal for potential track use what GM was better than the other manufacturers about covering failures on the track
Outisde of sight lines, valvetrain failures, and a useless back seat it is an exceptional car.
I think it falls under standard GM practices of building a good car, and not telling anyone about it. Magazines and people in the know will love it, and no one else every thinks about it.
After this goes away there will be no reason to go to a GM dealer besides the vette and trucks (and truck based SUVS). Nothing else in their line is compelling compared to its competition. Im a big GM guy and we just bought a car for the wife. We were looking at everything from large cars to SUVs of all sizes, nothing at GM was good enough to even warrant a test drive.
Sadly, this is mostly true. Once the Camaro is gone the only fun cars GM has left are too rich for my blood. (Corvette, and the Caddy CT-V blackwing twins) I like my wife's Equinox though.
The CT4 and CT5 V Blackwing or whatever the heck they are called (what was wrong with CTS-V and ATS-V? or Catera-V and Cimarron-V) are also dead after the next model year arent they?
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:Opti said:In reply to calteg :
The ones that knew about it did find it compelling. Its a relatively small market and not everyone knew about it. It was interesting to see what the 1LE was cross shopped with on the 6Gen forums. Routinely cross shopped with M and P cars, and GT350s. A big deal for potential track use what GM was better than the other manufacturers about covering failures on the track
Outisde of sight lines, valvetrain failures, and a useless back seat it is an exceptional car.
I think it falls under standard GM practices of building a good car, and not telling anyone about it. Magazines and people in the know will love it, and no one else every thinks about it.
After this goes away there will be no reason to go to a GM dealer besides the vette and trucks (and truck based SUVS). Nothing else in their line is compelling compared to its competition. Im a big GM guy and we just bought a car for the wife. We were looking at everything from large cars to SUVs of all sizes, nothing at GM was good enough to even warrant a test drive.
Sadly, this is mostly true. Once the Camaro is gone the only fun cars GM has left are too rich for my blood. (Corvette, and the Caddy CT-V blackwing twins) I like my wife's Equinox though.
GM has decided to cater to upper middle class and above with their bigger, more expensive, simple to build trucks and truck derivatives. Their algorithm tells them there is no profit in cheaper cars.
Leave that for the Japanese and South Koreans.
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
The compact cars have generally been loss leaders, intended to get butts in the door so they could upsell to a Caprice or something, or sell them a Caprice when they traded in. That is a lot of why they never took compact cars seriously: if you wanted something that wasn't a POS, get a bigger car.
People don't trade in every two years anymore, so there is little incentive to have a loss leader to generate traffic. Need to hook 'em first. And the Caprice has been replaced by an SUV.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
The compact cars have generally been loss leaders, intended to get butts in the door so they could upsell to a Caprice or something, or sell them a Caprice when they traded in. That is a lot of why they never took compact cars seriously: if you wanted something that wasn't a POS, get a bigger car.
...or you go down the street to the Volkswagen Dealer or the Toyota Dealer where they take smaller cars more seriously.
I wonder who will step in this time to provide the alternative to American manufacturers.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
The compact cars have generally been loss leaders, intended to get butts in the door so they could upsell to a Caprice or something, or sell them a Caprice when they traded in. That is a lot of why they never took compact cars seriously: if you wanted something that wasn't a POS, get a bigger car.
...or you go down the street to the Volkswagen Dealer or the Toyota Dealer where they take smaller cars more seriously.
I wonder who will step in this time to provide the alternative to American manufacturers.
"What are people going to do, put their family in a Corolla?"
Later:
"Ah, the new Mercedes-Benz?"
"No, Mr. DeLorean, it's the new Toyota."
I suspect that given the only people taking small cars seriously right now are Hyundai/Kia, my money's on them.
John Welsh said:Don't worry, GM will bring the name back, likely on whatever the latest Daewoo sourced micro compact SUV is to come next.
"Camaro Cross" a la Mitsubishi
SEADave said:Gotta respect the fact that the Camaro came with 4 different engines and each one of them could be had with a real 6-speed manual. Apparently that wasn't enough. Interesting to note that Ford dropped the manual for the new Ecoboost Mustang and the Challenger (AFAIK) never offered a manual with anything less than the V8.
Why would that matter? People like posters here don't buy enough new cars, and the Camaro, Mustang, Charger trio are more about nostalgia than real performance. Drive a car that *can* do something rather than actually doing it- so manuals don't matter. Especially these days.
alfadriver said:SEADave said:Gotta respect the fact that the Camaro came with 4 different engines and each one of them could be had with a real 6-speed manual. Apparently that wasn't enough. Interesting to note that Ford dropped the manual for the new Ecoboost Mustang and the Challenger (AFAIK) never offered a manual with anything less than the V8.
Why would that matter? People like posters here don't buy enough new cars, and the Camaro, Mustang, Charger trio are more about nostalgia than real performance. Drive a car that *can* do something rather than actually doing it- so manuals don't matter. Especially these days.
If you believe that you should go check the Lightning Lap results. A 1LE Mustang or Track Pack Mustang is a real performance car bargain.
FSP_ZX2 said:The thing I am curious about is....NASCAR. I can't see a Corvette being the representative model...that just won't happen. I don't think the Malibu is long for the world either.
They said they are ending the Gen6 car. Maybe a Gen7 is being developed (either as an EV or ICE) and they are keeping a very tight lid on it.
Looks like the "Camaro" can be used beyond 2024.
https://twitter.com/bobpockrass/status/1638966116088430594?t=_XpC40nP5WROIWxn5cmvvg&s=19
Full disclosure I have not driven a camaro past gen 3. But I think the 2 things that sink it are a lack of advertising to the general public and a lack of focus on interior fit and finish. I drive a lot of gm rentals and my impression is always great motor but sh!tty interior materials and detailing. This makes for good long distance drives, and I am constantly thinking of swapping a gm drivetrain into something but I am in no way interested in buying one of the current offerings.
I've had a few base V6 Camaros as rental cars, and it's true, the visibility out of the car is poor, and the trunk opening is indeed small. But they are quick, great driving cars. I've also had a few base Mustang rentals, and I much prefer the Camaro for driving dynamics. But for day-to-day livability, the Mustang is a better car. That's why the Mustang outsells the Camaro by such a large margin.
alfadriver said:SEADave said:Gotta respect the fact that the Camaro came with 4 different engines and each one of them could be had with a real 6-speed manual. Apparently that wasn't enough. Interesting to note that Ford dropped the manual for the new Ecoboost Mustang and the Challenger (AFAIK) never offered a manual with anything less than the V8.
Why would that matter? People like posters here don't buy enough new cars, and the Camaro, Mustang, Charger trio are more about nostalgia than real performance. Drive a car that *can* do something rather than actually doing it- so manuals don't matter. Especially these days.
My daily driver is an Ecoboost. Mrs. Snowdoggie recently got a new CRV and I rented a new Camaro convertible the last time I was in Las Vegas. Mrs. Snowdoggie had a Challenger for a rental when her car was in the body shop.
I have driven all three of them.
Back in the day I also owned a '69 Mustang with a 351 and a '65 Barracuda with a 318. My Ecoboost has more horsepower than either one of my older V8 ponycars, it also handles better and has electronics that didn't exist in the 60s.
The newer cars are better.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:alfadriver said:SEADave said:Gotta respect the fact that the Camaro came with 4 different engines and each one of them could be had with a real 6-speed manual. Apparently that wasn't enough. Interesting to note that Ford dropped the manual for the new Ecoboost Mustang and the Challenger (AFAIK) never offered a manual with anything less than the V8.
Why would that matter? People like posters here don't buy enough new cars, and the Camaro, Mustang, Charger trio are more about nostalgia than real performance. Drive a car that *can* do something rather than actually doing it- so manuals don't matter. Especially these days.
If you believe that you should go check the Lightning Lap results. A 1LE Mustang or Track Pack Mustang is a real performance car bargain.
Doesn't matter what they CAN do, that isn't why the majority of people buy them, is the point being made.
DirtyBird222 said:GM did what they do best on this one. Design by committee and terrible advertising. Maybe if they featured it in one of those terrible "real people" ads, they could have gotten an extra 200 sales out of it.
Designed by committee and advertised by it too.
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