Racing on the cheap. Stock Bottom ends.

Actually leave the ports alone as well. The Nelsons often go to a junkyard pick up a high mileage engine  and race it that way.  
     The only two things they change is camshaft(s)  and turbo.  
  Calvin Made 824 wheel hp on a stock Atlas Engine.  And over 1000 on a LS.  
      To be fair, they take the LS apart and  put in Xbearings.  ( .001 looser)  but since they have to do almost that to get the cam in it's pretty legitimate. 
  How do they get it to survive?   Well high mileage opens up ring gaps.   They Like .020 minimum. And using E85 doesn't get the rings as hot as Gasoline does. 
    The other thing is using the stock rods they pull the timing back  from 3000-5500  so the engine doesn't make as much torque. 
      They did break a rod on an Atlas.  They don't know if it was the fault of the ignition breaking up and misfiring, or the 40 pounds of boost  they accidentally let it get to.   Against that the bearings were beautiful,  rings were still excellent,   Pins were still free and loose. 
 $175 engine.  This was only after 175,000miles, plus 3 years of their use.  9 second 1/4 times.  Countless dyno pulls. Etc.  
     But the Atlas has a bad Rod length to stroke ratio.  Something less than 1.5-1.  Good is over 2-1 ( my Jag is 2.65 )     For road racing the turbo is too big.     But it makes a lot of power for drag racing.    
    But racing Cheap motors seems like fun.   
     

The price of the engine is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.  I can't see trying to save $1500 on an engine build if it blows and causes me to total the car at worst, or waste a weekend of racing and untold amounts of free time putting the car back together.

$1500 might buy you four tires depending on what you are playing with 

I'm fortunate in that the Datsun stock bottom end is good to 9000RPM. 

The motor will take it or it won't. If you have a motor that will then no need to buy expensive parts.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

The price of the engine is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.  I can't see trying to save $1500 on an engine build if it blows and causes me to total the car at worst, or waste a weekend of racing and untold amounts of free time putting the car back together.

 

$1500 might buy you four tires depending on what you are playing with 

    How many decades did I get out of my Junkyard Jag motor?  Yeh, I spent some money on it.  But that was what you did back then.  Stock bottom end ( except pistons) stock top end ( except camshafts were reground ) a little port work and careful reassembly.  That was a race winning motor.  Against some pretty famous GP and Indy car racers.   Extremely high dollar cars. And the engine  is still together in the museum.  

Tom1200 said:

I'm fortunate in that the Datsun stock bottom end is good to 9000RPM. 

The motor will take it or it won't. If you have a motor that will then no need to buy expensive parts.

 

     The Nelsons make even weaker parts last by avoiding making too much torque at lower RPM.  
   I didn't realize that's what I did too.  By over camming  it  the stock crankshaft and rods not known for tolerating High RPM survived.   

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

How much do you spend on your motor?   
 Most racers spend thousands if not tens of thousands on a motor that may only last a season. 
    If a guy has to spend that kind of money for engines , tires,  etc.  then only a select few can enjoy the hobby. 
     If a few cheap parts and a cheap used engine  cuts costs enough so more people can participate then isn't that a good thing?   
More  people racing spreads costs  among more people  further making sports car racing accessible.  
     Just in case you think  someone is getting an unfair advantage. It seems pretty fair to me.  
A trade of lower cost  for  less security 

It all depends on the engine, how much power you want to make and how high you want to rev it.  And sometimes how long you want it to last. 

Some engines have pretty sturdy bottom ends that'll hold up great if you keep within certain limits.  Others have crap bottom ends that become short lived or start breaking if you go much beyond stock power.  So outside of a given engine family there's not really any rule to go by. 

In reply to rslifkin :

Here is a case where smart purchase can really pay off. There are plenty of ego cars out there.  Cars like Maserati, certain BMW's Mercedes, Jaguars,  that have really high depreciation.  
 Typically what goes wrong is the comfort things, HVAC, Navigation, seats, paint, and style.  
 Mechanically they tend to be extremely solid long after the delayed maintenance  makes them near worthless.  Especially cars of the 80's / 90's even into the 2000's 

  Grab those still good parts. Toss them in a smaller car and Bob's your Uncle.  
   A semi decent rule to go by is cheaper less popular small cars tend not be worthy 

In reply to frenchyd :

That's definitely a viable option at times.  But even fairly pedestrian engines sometimes have good guts.  Like the LS, or the late model (90s and early 2000s) small block Mopars used in trucks.  Both have bottom ends that will support a pretty solid power increase over stock and are often usable right out of a junkyard with a few tweaks or upgrades to get some extra power. 

When trying to do things cheaply, it's all about knowing "ok, that's the easy and popular option everyone uses, but what else is out there that's 90% as good and really cheap because nobody bothers with them?"

related:  NA VG30DEs are thrown in the garbage all the time in favor of RB swaps, but they will handle a fairly decent amount of boost.  The Z32 stock-block record is held by an NA motor (that was later boosted) with ~780whp.  

I wonder how strong the variants found in other Nissan products from the era are.

In reply to rslifkin :

Ahh you are right, but popular tends to mean valuable.  Junkyards understand demand and price accordingly.  
  175,000 mile LS  will command a decent price in the junkyard. While a Chevy Atlas is unloved and will sell for less than 1/2 of an LS. 
     Then we have oddballs like Jaguars.  Low demand but often have extremely low miles.  You can pick up a Jag 6 for $150-$200 All aluminum 4 valves Per cylinder DOHC  and not saddled with an unworkable oil pan like the Atlas or Hydraulic lifters like the Atlas. 
  The V12,  well hopefully everyone is well aware of its strengths by now.  

In reply to ProDarwin :

That's exactly the sort of knowledge that  makes stock   viable.  

frenchyd said:

But racing Cheap motors seems like fun.   
     

Changing them all the time isn't  I have customers making 500-700whp on stock bottom end 2.8-3.2l motors and with good fuel they can last. Turn them up a hair more and it goes sideways.

I'm trying to set a stock bottom end record but not sure if filling the engine still counts for some people 

I've heard from a few Honda people that prefer stock untouched motors vs rebuilding one. One friend had more concerns with a rebuilt or built motor at the track. The reasons he was sort of steering me towards a K series swap when my ringland went on my rebuilt b18c1, plenty of motors in good condition vs finding a b series motor in the same shape. He was tracking his RSX with 200k+ miles. The only reason why his died was from an unbaffled pan. 

Then I see things like all the k swap cars at gridlife running stock bottom ends holding up pretty well in those conditions. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

But racing Cheap motors seems like fun.   
     

Changing them all the time isn't  I have customers making 500-700whp on stock bottom end 2.8-3.2l motors and with good fuel they can last. Turn them up a hair more and it goes sideways.

I'm trying to set a stock bottom end record but not sure if filling the engine still counts for some people 

If you're changing engines all the time somebody is doing something wrong.   Either not using good  enough engines in the first place. Or not dealing with oil slosh.   Or pushing engines past the breaking point. 
     That's often the issue. If you put all sorts of high dollar parts in your block you expect to be able to wind it higher  so you do but now you find out what the next weak link is.  KaBang . 
    Road racing as compared to autocrossing likely requires a dry sump.  Taking the cheap way and trying to get by with baffles and an Accusump  likely won't work.    

aw614 said:

I've heard from a few Honda people that prefer stock untouched motors vs rebuilding one. One friend had more concerns with a rebuilt or built motor at the track. The reasons he was sort of steering me towards a K series swap when my ringland went on my rebuilt b18c1, plenty of motors in good condition vs finding a b series motor in the same shape. He was tracking his RSX with 200k+ miles. The only reason why his died was from an unbaffled pan. 

Then I see things like all the k swap cars at gridlife running stock bottom ends holding up pretty well in those conditions. 

Engine "builders" seldom understand the clearances required for racing.  Too tight a end gap on rings will break ring lands when the ends butt together and have no place left to go under the heat of racing  then pop off the ring lands  you also need a little more clearance on bearings and most parts. Hence well worn engines working better  then fresh engines too tight clearances. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Dry sump or not really depends on the engine and what car it's put in.  Some do pretty well with oiling and will live fine with a deep, well baffled pan and maybe a few other tweaks.  Others are pretty much guaranteed to fail when road racing unless you go dry sump.  Depends a lot on how well they can drain oil back to the pan, how good a pan you can fit in the chassis and the general oiling design of the engine in question.  

In reply to rslifkin :

I look under the hoods of nearly every Small block or LS Chevy and see a dry sump.  Ford and even Dodge.  
        I see MGTD with dry sump sections  in leu of a stock oil pump.  
 Most formula cars. Including even Formula Fords.   Longer engines like Jaguars have 4 stage dry dumps.  
Can Am all have dry sump. 
   Now perhaps the predominance of dry sumps are because of the tracks around here.  I know that the 270 degree carousel at Elkhart Lake  would be death to a wet sump  even if it didn't have those three long straights  with hard braking at the end of each. 
Brainerd's banking on turn one demands a dry sump not to mention turn 3 and turn 10. 
    Road Atlanta demands dry sump in 3 spots that I can think of. As Does Mid Ohio. 
Even temporary circuits   Like Grand Bahama's and the airport  track at Navy North island San Diego  required it as you crossed the duty runway  getting airborne landing with a dogleg hook  under hard braking. 
     The earlier Jaguars used in racing all had big deep 22 quart pans fully baffled but starting in 1954 with those hard skinny tires  All racing Jaguars had dry sumps.  Pretty sure the Mercedes 300 SLR's were dry sumped.  

frenchyd said:

If you're changing engines all the time somebody is doing something wrong.   

 Not really, it doesn't take much when you are 4x over stock power on a bone stock engine to have an oops moment. Usually it's to win a race and that's the drivers choice, not mine.

Also this:

preaching to the choir about big power stock engines  go build one yourself.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

That's exactly who I was thinking of.   The nut behind the wheel guy.  

     I remember racing my Corvette built with cast off junk.   Knowing what was in the motor I took it easy. Never went over Red Line. If oil pressure was falling or temps climbing  I'd  ease off to finish.  My first race  I qualified Dead last. 17 cars DNF'd  and I finished on the podium.   Darn near every race was like that in ABC production.  

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Wow. All night I was trying to get my head around 4 times stock power.   
  I know I'll never achieve that.  My goal was 2 times.  Even Calvin Nelson only reached 3 times.  That for drag racing which due to the short duration of a drag race is understandable.  
  To build a stock bottom end engine to survive at 4 times stock power  and have it last through a road race  is mind bending. I can't even imagine all that is required.  
OK proper fuel feed in the proper amounts.  With proper timing  and boost control. Adequate cooling of both oil and coolant. Hmmmm

  I wonder how many hours it takes to figure all that out.  I remember Reading all the Work Mark Donahue spent at the Porsche Factory getting the turbo's working on the 917.  They got what 1000 hp from a built for racing 5 liter?
      

The 2JZ record is >5x the stock power level

Im curious what Paul has to say, but I doubt those builds with 4x the stock power levels are doing road racing events.

In reply to frenchyd :

The tracks in question are definitely a factor.  And in some cases, people may go dry sump just as insurance instead of trying to figure out how to make it live without one.  Or they may just not have room for an adequate wet sump in a given chassis (if you can't fit a deep, skinny pan, you may need a dry sump, as a big, but wide and shallow pan probably won't work well enough).  And of course, the amount of grip the car has will be a factor as well, so it'll depend on what kind of racing you're doing.  Oiling is much harder in a car that's pulling 1.5gs than a car that's only pulling 1g. 

As far as stock engines go, I know older small block Chevies don't have the world's best oil drainback, nor is the stock oiling great for sustained high RPM.  Small block Mopars are better about it (at least for the 90s Magnum version you can spin 6200 pretty safely on a stock bottom end with stock oiling and not hurt it).  And oil drainback is pretty decent on those, so you'll be able to go further with just a good windage tray, crank scraper, and appropriate oil pan. 

ProDarwin said:

The 2JZ record is >5x the stock power level

Im curious what Paul has to say, but I doubt those builds with 4x the stock power levels are doing road racing events.

Drag/roll race purposed. No problem doing 2-2.5x with good fuel on bone stock engines for longer durations, as long as cooling and oiling is taken care of. We don't see oiling issues on these engines (vr6) at all unless the level is low or its put in a car mounted front /rear instead of transverse.

Also, I don't mean stock "gone over" engines, with head bolts, main studs, rod bolts, machine work, bigger ring gaps, x bearings... I mean like completely not touched engines other than making sure they don't leak. Some early ones we'll throw a later mls hg on it and studs and those get to close to 5x on ethanol/methanol with the right setup (usually cams/valve springs at that point)

Yes That's what I mean as well when I say stock bottom ends.  Higher mileage engines that have opened up clearance through normal wear. Usually come from Junkyards.  
       Due to the wheel to wheel road race requirement dry sumps are required,  though not required for Drag racing/ LSR  racing that doesn't have the same oil surge issues. 
     You mentioned cams and springs, does anything else add significantly?   I'm thinking of perhaps bigger throttle bodies, larger  intake tube sizes?