Could that help with getting it to rotate?

The car in question (1995 Saab 900SE) already has the biggest rear swaybar available (25mm), Vogtland springs, Bilstiens, is gutted, etc and has chronic, uncureable, understeer problems.

I think problem #1 is trying to make that all work with 205/50/15's on 6" wide steelies (and I have plans for that...), but might the springs help?

In reply to thestig99:

What are your alignment settings? Spring rates? How old are the Bilstiens? Percentage of weight on front and rear? What make and model of tires? Does it have original stock suspension bushings?

Some cars have the suspension designed to prevent rotating, but I don't know much about 90' Saab's. Is this your daily driver or track only car?

I run 400 front 500 rear on my civic with the biggest rear sway I could buy without going to a torsion bar (32mm +) and rotates really well.

You should see similar results. Try left foot braking to get the car to rotate a little more.

Original alignment settings (which I don't remember, but doing something with it I'm sure would be beneficial. Bilstiens have maybe 3k miles, 2 autoxs and 4 days of track time. I don't know the percentages, but very nose-heavy. Falken Azenis RT-615, in need of replacement (they were free, and got me into it...). Front suspension bushings are poly. It's not my DD, but it is street driven... and driven to events.

I don't know the rates on the springs so I'm kinda shooting in the dark (and I'm at the "what if" phase of the plan), but I am trying to come up with that.

1 The driver can be the main cause.

2 Have you tried removing the front sway bar.

I run 400lb springs all the way around on the CRX and a 22mm solid bad. It rotates VERY well even with r-comps.

Are you picking an inside rear tire off? If not, go stiffer. If so, go lower in the rear and/or add stiffness to the front.

Well, almost certainly my driving is the biggest problem, but I'm trying to make it the cars' fault here

Hadn't thought of removing the front swaybar, but I like it....

Don't believe I'm picking the inside rear up anymore (it was good tripod on stock springs, though), but I imagine it's probably not far from it.

Yes

Alignment is going to make a huge difference, IMO.

My c900 has no problem rotating on track.

I have 450fr and 700rr and I have trouble with the ass not wanting to be in cornfields.

You have to run very heavy springs in order to combat body roll induced loss contact patch compared to raising roll bar diameter. You do compromise the benefits of independent suspension a little but it is worth it. I would recommend leaving the front bar on unless you can dial in a lot more front negative camber.

On a car with stock(ish) spring rates, you need a large front bar to combat the body roll that will cause the outside front tyre to ride on the side wall and to help keep the inside front tyre in contact with the road. This may be why the SCCA allows you to run a larger front bar in stock class. I would run higher tyre pressures and a huge bar on the rear in order to move the balance of grip towards the front.

If you went waay up in spring rate all around, then the front bar can be removed as there now should be sufficient roll combating stiffness in the car as a whole. I would do: 1, camber plates if allowed. 2, then spring rates with height adjustments if possible. 3. Reverse stagger with wider front tyres for more front end grip. 4. Raise the size of the rear, reduce remove front bar if spring rates are in the 400lb/in or higher range.

m

the c900 was a very neutral handling car.. the NG900 was an understeering pig. the 94 I had was great in a straight line.. but sucked for corners. I think the late NG900s and OG 9-3s had better suspension than the 94's and 95's

Rule of thumb. Pushes/understeers. Stiffen the rear or soften the front.
How much camber are you running in the front ? You also can experiment with tire pressures,front to rear.

Stiff as possible in the rear (sways/springs) and 1/4" toe out in the front should make a dramatic decrease in understeer. Depending on your spring rate you can also remove the front sway bar to increase front end grip.

My MKII GTI could rotate or run four wheel drifts with Shine springs, Shine rear sway, and no front sway bar. On cold tires it oversteered like mad. Pretty fun.

fwiw.. I had a first gen hyundai excel. A car that understeered so badly, it was dangerous in the rain. I remember taking a slow corner in the ran and winding up on the kerb head on.

When the front sway bar bracket broke free of the control arm.. I removed the entire front swaybar.. and with just a rear bar, turned the car into a neutral handling little runabout.

I would try removing the front bar.. but if you do, you may need to go back to one of the smaller rear bars

The problem with removing the front bar is that the car will lean more exaccerbating the camber problem. Another thing I found is to increase the caster as much as possible.Adds negative camber on the outside wheel,positive on the inside wheel in a turn.

DaveEstey wrote: #1 The driver can be the main cause. #2 Have you tried removing the front sway bar. I run 400lb springs all the way around on the CRX and a 22mm solid bad. It rotates VERY well even with r-comps.

Dude- You drive a CRX. You don't get to contribute to a conversation about a fat front wheel drive car that won't turn. Unless its just to make fun of us.

Neon, 400 front, 700 rear, 19mm rear bar, 22mm front with links loosened a bit, turns fair. Will never turn like a CRX.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Dude- You drive a CRX. You don't get to contribute to a conversation about a fat front wheel drive car that won't turn. Unless its just to make fun of us. Neon, 400 front, 700 rear, 19mm rear bar, 22mm front with links loosened a bit, turns fair. Will never turn like a CRX.

+1

I love rwd/240sx's etc etc. I ended up with a cheap CRX from my friend, the only honda I like.

It coincidentally could oversteer stock like my beloved RWD 240sx's. It was a surprise on the off ramp I found that out on! Then it was fun after that....

CRX's aren't allowed in a Ohnoezmyfwdundersteers discussion. They are short and stiff, and made some how with less fail.

~Alex

I wasn't always blessed with a FWD car that would turn. Can I play now? Honda set it's phazers for fail when they put the suspension on this bad boy. 600lb springs needed to get any semblance of rotation because the rear suspension had such a lousy motion ration. Front suspension turned into a pig if lowered more than an inch.

Stig you may recognize this car and course, it was Stowe last year.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Dude- You drive a CRX. You don't get to contribute to a conversation about a fat front wheel drive car that won't turn.

This belongs in "Say What?"

In reply to iceracer: Rule of thumb. Pushes/understeers. Stiffen the rear or soften the front. How much camber are you running in the front ? You also can experiment with tire pressures,front to rear.

The following site recommends poly swaybar bushing in the rear and stock swaybar bushing in the front. This effectively stiffens the rear and leaves the front stock or soft. This might help your 900.

http://www.saab9000.com/procedures/suspension/antirollr.php

iceracer wrote: The problem with removing the front bar is that the car will lean more exaccerbating the camber problem. Another thing I found is to increase the caster as much as possible.Adds negative camber on the outside wheel,positive on the inside wheel in a turn.

This is why I am not in favor of removing front sways. Anyway, once the rear tire comes off of the ground, the only thing you can do at that point is stiffen the front (to reduce camber loss) or lower the rear (to lower the CG and minimize body roll). Normal suspension tuning does not apply to a three wheeled vehicle!

The camber gain from caster is minimal at best, but it does help improve steering feel.

7pilot wrote: This may be why the SCCA allows you to run a larger front bar in stock class.

I heard that it was due to a certain vehicle that had a tendency to flip over in bone-stock form, unless it had a front bar fitted.

I have yet to hear WHICH vehicle it was, but I strongly suspect that it was the Rabbit.

I nearly doubled the caster on my ZX2-SR with some stock adjustments and offset bushings for the control arm. When you are talking 2.5-3 degrees camber, another 1/2 is welcome. It really improved the driveability. I never did check to see how much actual camber gain I got because it depends on how far you turn the wheel. An other thing, it tends to load the inside wheel. At least in theory.

Loading the inside wheel will do far more to reduce understeer, I think. Anything you can do to minimize the difference in load between inside and outside will result in more grip.

The noodle-baker is, is it REALLY increasing load, or is it just increasing body roll?

Information. Overload.

Which is good. Not that I can actually find the rates for my springs or anything, but still...

DaveEstey wrote: I wasn't always blessed with a FWD car that would turn. Can I play now? Honda set it's phazers for fail when they put the suspension on this bad boy. 600lb springs needed to get any semblance of rotation because the rear suspension had such a lousy motion ration. Front suspension turned into a pig if lowered more than an inch. Stig you may recognize this car and course, it was Stowe last year.

Yup. I also borrowed your jack on Mallets Bay after mine broke and dropped my 9-3 when I was changing my second flat bolt tire....