R&T made me really, really sad with a hot take on sports cars...and they might be right

frenchyd said:

llysgennad said:

It doesn't seem like it's changed a lot in my lifetime. I was a teenager in the 80's. Decent size high school, 400-ish students. About 20 of us 'car' guys. I only remember maybe half a dozen cars that were in the parking lot. 69 Firebird, 85 IROC, 55 Chevy gasser, Mustang GT. One girl drove a Porsche 914 that no one really liked but it was Porsche so it had to be cool, right? We dreamed of Lamborghinis and Esprits.

I'm the only one of my family that cared about cars much, although Dad had been an old-school hot-rodder before kids. My kids both love cars, chomping at the bit to get licensed, one more year for the eldest. But I think they mainly want the freedom to go places, since we live way out there. (No pizza delivery for us!) I don't see either getting a racing license, although they love loud and fast. They help with repairs any time I offer, even just changing a tire. I hope that doesn't change, especially since their small hands can go places mine can't!

I don't know what any of this means for the future of fun cars built for driving. It seems like there's a plethora available new right now, in any price range.

I'll never have an autonomous vehicle for myself, but my wife can't wait.

How did you pay for your first car?  

With cash. ba-da-ting!

It was a $600 beater to get me to college, and not necessarily back. 

In reply to frenchyd :

It's a problem from the standpoint that the demographic which can reasonably afford to buy new sports cars is aging. Even with the recent increase in wages, the debt load to starting pay ratio is high enough that it sets back major purchases for those just entering the work force with a college degree.

As those individuals delay major purchases, life's other priorities creep in and shrinks the oft targeted 18-34 market for cheap sports cars. The older demographics, by and large, are less willing to tolerate the rough edges and downsides of owning a cheap sports car.

Even the fed makes note of increasing median age for new car buyers since the recession and notes that, while the median age has increased in the US, economic factors are likely the primary reason for the decline. While educated, married, high income individuals are more likely to buy new (duh) the oft targeted demographic for new cheap sports cars (again 18-34) has reduced their new car buying by 50%.

Fed report link

The economic insecurity is noted as the primary problem for that group.

As far as motivations go, I covered that in my page 2 post. We'll just have to agree that they vary by the individual.

New cars, in general, are expensive.  When I was in high school a brand new civic Si was $10k.  A Focus ST is more than twice that now. 

911's were always expensive but a new 911 Turbo is the better part of $150k and that just gets you going.  There's NO way I could afford one new.  Heck, buying the 15 year old 996 Turbo took a lot of saving and maneuvering...

I just think tastes have changed. For the yoots, there's nothing cool about a cramped sports car anymore when the cool folks are all driving either a Punisher bro-dozer truck or a bicycle, depending where you live. 

The only exception are cheaper sports cars, like the boostang or FRS, but they're the almost exclusive domain of a super-douchy crowd of young people. 

Jeep has record profits and it's not because they make great appliances! They make what the cool kids want.

So here’s a question: when is the last time sports cars were “cool?” 

(I wonder how many days we could spend arguing over the definitions of “sports car” and “cool”)

Let’s use the 911 and Miata as an example.

I grew up in the 90s when, as far as I could tell, a new Porsche 911 was a car you owned if you were rich and wanted everyone to know it.

And a Miata was, as far as I could tell,  a car you drove if you were either a girl, or someone who enjoyed driving and didn’t care what people thought about your choice of car.

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

In the 90s all the Japanese sports cars were cool, at least to my lame-o teenage brain. Well, not MR-2s, but Supras, RX-7s, 300ZXs....etc.

Dave M said:

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

In the 90s all the Japanese sports cars were cool, at least to my lame-o teenage brain. Well, not MR-2s, but Supras, RX-7s, 300ZXs....etc.

Agreed, but NOT MR2s!?  

The instant something becomes cool it get ruined by tossers who show up like a swarm of locusts and ruin it.

My 24 year old son and his friends are care guys; a couple have bought new cars, both sports cars and sports coupes. The reality is that trucks and SUVs have huge profit margins so go figure they're not keen on building cars.

I too think that the percentage of enthusiasts is probably to what it was when I graduated school near 40 years ago. Yes young people have lots of distractions now days but so did we; motorcycles, fishing, hunting and trying to talk somebody into buying us beer.

Tom1200 said:

The instant something becomes cool it get ruined by tossers who show up like a swarm of locusts and ruin it.

My 24 year old son and his friends are care guys; a couple have bought new cars, both sports cars and sports coupes. The reality is that trucks and SUVs have huge profit margins so go figure they're not keen on building cars.

I too think that the percentage of enthusiasts is probably to what it was when I graduated school near 40 years ago. Yes young people have lots of distractions now days but so did we; motorcycles, fishing, hunting and trying to talk somebody into buying us beer.

 

Yeah, you gotta watch what you wish for. Metal was cool until all the posers showed up in like 1988-89 and ruined everything. Then nu-metal gets big and metal got lame again. Or how mainstream hip-hop was cool until about 1996 when all the posers showed up and made it about spending money rather than social commentary.

In reply to frenchyd :

I often think and wonder the same things, and I'm much younger than you are.  I made my first money before I was a teenager- helping my dad sell Christmas trees in front of our house.  I can recall haggling with an old Italian lady who tried to beat me up on the price of a tree she wanted.  But I held firm- $20!  Hey, that was a nice tree back then...

As a teenager, I drove a 60's Cub Cadet tractor that I'd bought with my own cash around the neighborhood and cut folks' lawns.  In the winter, I walked around with a snow shovel.  I bought beat up old mowers cheap, fixed them, and resold them in font of my parent's house.  When I turned 14 and could legally work a store job, I got one at a garden center down the street that I could ride my bike to, since I couldn't drive for 2 more years.  

Even when I -did- get my license, I didn't get a car right away.  Couldn't afford one.  Mom and dad were plain on that- no buying me a car.  I borrowed theirs when they let me.  

Whe I turned 19 I finally had saved enough that I figured I could swing my own wheels.  I searched the classifieds in the local newspaper (this was pre-online ads) and got a friend to drive me to look at a few old beater trucks.  I eventually plunked down $550 on a 1977 GMC Suburban, a real pile of rust, but it ran and the heater worked.  I still remember the first time my dad saw it- I hadn't told him I'd bought a car, and his reaction was priceless...:"well....it sure is....a truck."

I won't go out into left field and say I was deprived or anything as a kid.  We never wanted for anything, my parents made sure we got the best education they could afford, we had a nice home and took vacations and stuff.  But my parents also found a way to make sure we knew the value of money, how to earn it, how to save it, and working towards goals.  I was afraid my dad would be angry that I'd spent my money on a car, but he really wasn't.  In retrospect, I know exactly what he was, in fact:  Proud.  

How many parents, nowadays, get that feeling of pride when their kid drags home a 20 year old rust bucket and proclaims it "theirs"?  

(Incidentally, about a year after buying that old 'Burb, I happened across a haggard 1971 BMW 2002, for $250.  And thus, the madness began...)

In reply to llysgennad :

The $600 cash, was it given to you? Or did you earn it?   

Maybe I’m biased and just wrong.  But are younger people no longer  taking those teenager entry level jobs? 

The whole subject is worthy of development.  

My first car was a gift. It was a '96 Jeep XJ my dad paid $500 for. Admittedly I didn't get my first paying job until I was 19 after I failed out of my first attempt at college. I worked part time a few different times through my 2nd attempt that I'm almost done with. Every car after that jeep was a string of  beaters I paid almost nothing for or traded for. Now I just recently landed my first decent money full time job and am driving my Saturn there 43 miles each way until I get through my 90 days and start looking for a place closer to work. Coming to terms with the fact I really can't afford to own all the crappy cars I have piled up after I move out of my parent's place and plan on getting rid of most of them, keeping my nice project car and replacing the rest of the fleet with one decent daily which I probably plan to spend around 5k on. 

I'd probably buy a widebody Scat Pack Challenger with a stick monday morning if I could, but thats not happening anytime soon.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Thank you for sharing that.  Sounds like we grew up with similar values and interests.  

In 1988 a local kid was abducted, sexually abused and then murdered. It was the big story for a while.  After that I no longer saw kids without parents.  No kids walking to school or riding their bikes.  Playing in the parks or just messing around. 

As a school bus driver nearly every kid I pick up has an adult someplace nearby. When I drop them off the same thing applies.  If a child is supposed to be home at 4:10 and isn’t  by 4:15  or sometimes sooner the radio is calling me about the kid.  

Poor kids,  no freedom to just mess around. Explore who they are and what interests they have.  No wonder the phone is so much part of their lives.  They have scheduled play dates.  Organized and Structured everything.  The phone provides the only connection most of them have. 

Of course they aren’t into cars.  They don’t have neighborhood kids with hot rods. Loud noisy things to mess around with and aspire to something better. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to llysgennad :

The $600 cash, was it given to you? Or did you earn it?   

Maybe I’m biased and just wrong.  But are younger people no longer  taking those teenager entry level jobs? 

The whole subject is worthy of development.  

In my experience young kids still take those teenager entry level jobs, no doubt about it. There just isn't as much of a want to spend that money on cars.

There is probably a correlation between the fact that the cost of even a total beater car (especially after C4C) has proportionally increased much more than entry-level wages. When I was in high school you could still find running/driving cars for sub-$500 all over the place, though they were total piles. Not easy at all these days.

I'm a millennial by some definitions.

I think sports cars are cool*, but only because I am an engineer and geeky about them.  Just like I think fast computers are cool.

I don't expect 99.9% of the population to share this belief.  Cars are an appliance that gets people from A - B.  The only reason most people deal with them is because of the 20th century sprawl that created the *need* for a car to get anywhere.

I would happily live with a bicycle or walk day to day and hope to get to that point some day.

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to dropstep :

"Most of us between paying Bill's and trying to save some money have zero interest in buying anything brand new. When I can spend 5k for a nice version of a car I love why would I spend 40+k plus for a new car"

Speaking as someone 10 years your senior, I can say a lot has changed for me in that decade.  I got a wife, 2 kids, a rental house, an hour each way commute, and a sore back.  Even that "nice" used car is going to need work, and having a new, warranteed car to depend on takes a lot of stress out of one's life, believe me.  

Plus, all out student loans and credit cards are paid off, and the 401k and Roth IRA are getting maxed every year.  I still like working on cars....just not the one I have to depend on

All I'm missing is the rental house but a strong aversion too debt after some dumb things as a teenager means my wife's 6 year old SUV is the only debt aside from the house we carry and I like it that way. But I also work in a garage and my round trip is 4 miles so I can drive pretty much anything. When you drive less then 1k miles a year on a vehicle there really is no reason to spend 40k. If we had public transport all I would own is my project car. 

One thing that nobody has mentioned is that owning/driving a sports car isn't as much fun as it should be due to too many stupid drivers and stupid driving laws.

If you try to rapidly manuever around/through traffic, some idiot will purposely block you and/or call the police to report a "Crazy driver".

And what's the point of having a sports car that can safely take a highway curve at 120, if the speed limit is 70 or less, and a generic car/truck/SUV is capable of safely taking the same curve at 90?

Some other thoughts on the various topics discussed on this thread from the perspective of a happily married "millennial" (hate to identify as that, but it's technically accurate) with a couple kids and a bunch of cars:

A lot of young people (and people in general) are just not interested in what makes cars or anything else function, as long as they can operate it well enough to serve it's purpose. I, however, have always been interested in how things work - cars, guns, mowers, electricity, appliances, plumbing systems, the stock market, computers, etc.

I bought my first car (used Honda Accord with 195K) at 17 and my first and only new car (Ford F150 XL RC/LB 2WD 3.7L V6) at 21. Still have both roughly 10yrs later. I've thought about buying another new car at some point, but not many options that appeal to me that I could realistically afford/justify, considering that I own more than 10 vehicles currently. I really want a red Honda Accord EXL V6 2dr Coupe, but they stopped making those in 2017, so I'll probably get one in 2027 when I can afford it. I do like the 2018 sedan also.

I absolutely HATE, HATE, HATE crossovers so much and can't imagine ever owning one. 

Another thing I do not like with newer cars is all the un-proven tech. I know a Honda engine will go for a looooong time, but how long will their "lane sensing" reliably last? 10yrs? 5? Or Ford's engine stop/start feature? Might work OK now, but how will it affect engine longevity? Last longer due to less time spent running? Die sooner from constantly restarting?

My wife (just a few months younger than me) got her license at 23, several months after we got married, 5yrs ago. My little sister  (several years younger than me) got hers at 16 and has put about 80k miles on her 06 Odyssey in the last 3yrs. My other 2 sisters didn't get their own cars until the ages of 22 (license at 19) and 30 (license at 17 but shared car with husband until they bought their house at 30). Brother bought car at 17 license at 18. None of them own a sports car or ever intend to. Closest thing to a sports car is my BIL's 08 Mazda 6 sedan with an auto trans lol.

Closest thing to a sports car that I own is a 2dr 1990 Buick Century 3300 V6, which I have occasionally loaded my kids and carseats into. Interestingly, it's easier to load the carseats in the 2dr than in my 4dr sedans, due to wider door entry and seats that fold forward.

Also, I am now the single income earner for my household and I earn a good amount below the median income for the area (about 200% of federal poverty line) working as a maintenance tech and still managed to pay off 4yrs worth of student loans (no degree), buy a house (down payment from savings from when wife was working before kids), pay for mortgage, gas, 403 (B), utilities, diapers, formula, health insurance, groceries, etc, pay for my truck, and still be able to buy a fleet of old beaters. I would argue that income is not the issue with Millenials, it's how they choose to use that income that prevents them from being able to buy a new sports car if they want one.

Millenials and GenZ or Gen0 also tend to be more eco-minded, and sports cars (or automobiles in general) are not generally considered to be eco-friendly. That may be a contributing factor to sales declines.

Many people in general tend to not plan ahead and see no use for having a backup vehicle. They would rather spend more money on buying newer cars, and when one starts having issues, they sell it and buy a slightly newer car that then starts having problems and they keep repeating that cycle. If they had a decent backup vehicle, such as a sports car, they wouldn't need to be as concerned about an issue with their main DD, as they would already have a vehicle and could better plan their car purchases without being pressed for time because their DD needs a large repair/gets wrecked/ stolen etc.

Sorry for the long post.

I havent read the article but ill just throw this out: The reason why not a lot of younger people arent into sports cars is because of money but slightly different than whats been discussed here.

Millennials, of which i am barely one somehow but share little in common, came to age during the economic downturn. It means for 6-8 years a lot were getting by on what was basically part time teenager/entry level jobs well into their 20s. As a result a lot had a kind of failure to start and lived at home, with limited money far longer than every other generation. Years upon years of that lifestyle teaches the smarter ones to not spend a lot of money on something that isnt very practical. In a lot of ways it stunted their young adult hood, they were 16 until they were 30. Having enough money to live on your own and afford small luxuries helps maturity, remember back when you got your first paycheck? It was a holy-E36 M3-i-can-buy-things moment that matured you into holy-E36 M3-i-can-make-my-own-decisions moment . Most view a car as an appliance, although one of my groomsman bought himself a brand new Golf R at 22 so car guys are still out there.

My first car was bought for me by my uncle who remembered when he couldnt buy his first car forever. I still own it and drive it, its my work truck a 91 Ranger. Bought an 00 explorer in 2005 and still own it. Bought my first challenge car in 2016 that is decidedly not a race car and bought my first arguably sporty car last year. My focus with cars was always keeping them running, its only recently that i started trying to make them handle and be fast but i lived in the deep woods for years, an explorer was all i needed. Im also far from the normal person my age, i started working at 14, built my own house at 22, started playing in bands at 18 and started a company at 28. My parents bought a piece of land and we literally cleared it by hand, built the house and did everything to make it a homestead from the age of 11, i even hauled water for a bit before there was a well. My house is totally off grid and on solar. The fact that im considered a Millennial is laughable in a lot of ways because i barely share any life experiences with them.

Sports cars, and car guys, will always be around but they might take a hit for a few years until millennials grow up a  bit and realize that driving a manual is awesome and cars arent just appliances

90BuickCentury said:

Millenials and GenZ or Gen0 also tend to be more eco-minded, and sports cars (or automobiles in general) are not generally considered to be eco-friendly. That may be a contributing factor to sales declines.

Oh yes. The constant moral dilemma of not wanting to murder the earth but really liking V8s and turbos. It's a thing.

In reply to Daylan C :

Truth.

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

I'm about 49, I wouldn't say that 911's were what people bought to show off their wealth when I was growing up.  I'm sure a portion of those owners bought the car because it was a Porsche and as a status symbol.  Those '80's 911's were really crap to drive and live with everyday, in traffic, etc.  The HVAC was terrible, ergonomics straight out of the '60's, etc, etc.

Most were enthusiasts would had always wanted a 911.  Much like myself, ever since I was a teenager, I aspired to someday own a 911 turbo.  I finally attained that goal last summer. 

Some of this is that the latest generations goals have shifted.  They no longer aspire to own a sports car, or sometimes, any car at all. 

In two years I'm giving my old SUV to my daughter (who'll be 16) so she can get to school/activities and help run her brother around.  I'm kicking around what to buy to replace it.  A Golf R or another SUV are what I'm thinking.  While I love the idea of a 707hp GC Trackhawk, the reality is the traffic in my commute makes a vehicle like that useless.  Pretty much the same thing with the GC SRT.  Even the Golf R, since it's going to have ~400hp in its next iteration, is overpowered for how I'll use it.

Simply put, the population density in most of the US cities has played a factor in killing "fun car" sales, because why deal with something that's hard to live with if you're lucky to drive 35mph in traffic to and from work?  At that point you're happier in something with an automatic transmission, lots of space, easy to get in/out of and killer HVAC and info-tainment.

Even datalogging properly in my area can be a challenge due to traffic, houses and stop signs even though there's lots of cornfields around. Maybe if I was a psychopath...

In reply to frenchyd :

The crazy thing is, statistically, the kids are probably safer today than back in the 80's when I was growing up.  We just hear about it more because of this internet thing.

And yet, my brother and I, before we were even teenagers, used to just hop on our bikes and go riding for 4 or 5 hours after lunch.  My parents just let us.  Sometimes I'd bring along a bag and collect cans and ride them down to the store for the nickel deposit.   

docwyte said:

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

Simply put, the population density in most of the US cities has played a factor in killing "fun car" sales, because why deal with something that's hard to live with if you're lucky to drive 35mph in traffic to and from work?

I’d argue it’s the *lack* of population density.  The traffic is due to everyone needing to commute from the suburbs.

In reply to red_stapler :

If all the cities were like New York, there'd be even fewer cars, as people in those cities wouldn't need them and wouldn't want to pay to park them, deal with them, etc.