Saturn going away, too?

Saturn has a version of the Cobalt called the Astra, it is just a couple hundred pounds lighter because of the hatchback version and smaller engines.

pinchvalve wrote: I look at Honda and they have a Fit, Insight, S2000, Clarity and Odyssey...none of which translate to Acura. The Civic and Accord are quite different from their Acura versions, I can't even tell you which platform becomes which car or if they even do. And Acura has three different sedans, so at least one is probably unique. The RDX from Acura, the CR-V, Ridgeline and Element from Honda are all unique. Only the MDX and Pilot seem even remotely related. So I am not sure you can lump Honda in with the Badge Engineering crowd. That said, there is some historical bias involved in bashing GM. Years ago there was a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick and Olds version of every sedan they made. That is no longer the case; Olds is dead, Buick and Saturn don't have a version of the Cobalt, and the G5 will be dead soon when Pontiac dies. I am guilty for remembering GMs sins of the 80's and 90's but they are working on it.

Saturn had the ion, and I thought that was a cobalt...

Joey

it was.

John Brown, how are Astras lighter due to smaller engines? It's still an ecotec.

Good think you can all justify your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If that is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty.

If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice.

Eric

belteshazzar wrote: it was. John Brown, how are Astras lighter due to smaller engines? It's still an ecotec.

Less the weight issue from the engines, but they do happen to have smaller engines. The weight issue is 200# IIRC.

alfadriver wrote: Good think you can all *justify* your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If *that* is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty. If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice. Eric

I agree.... but if i'm going to swallow badge engineering, i'd like larger differences, PERSONALLY.

Toyota and Honda, and even Nissan deliver that for me.

GM does not.

Any moron can see Cobalt = Ion.

Really, WE are the only people that sees Camry = Lexus ES.

Ymmv.

The Astra has 5-lug wheels, the Cobalt 4. Astra is shorter and looks taller. I see some details the same (door handles, windows in the 4-door), but I don't see any shared body panels. I don't think you can call those two the same (or the Ion for that matter which looked completely different).

Funnily enough, a former co-worker bought a Lexus ES. Everybody he showed the car to called it a Camry. He returned the thing two months later.

one that really got me was when they went from the cavalier to the cobalt and said "here you go, this one is ALL NEW" and it looked exactly like the cavalier it replaced. you'd have had to look at the badge on the trunk to know for sure. its easy now though, since all those cavaliers are no longer on the road, so you pretty much know its a cobalt.

and no, i don't justify my feelings about badge engineering. its stupid no matter who does it, imo. i know a guy that bought an ES, and i give him crap about overpaying for his camry all the time.

P71 wrote: The Astra has 5-lug wheels, the Cobalt 4.

Nobody but somebody here would even consider that.

P71 wrote: Funnily enough, a former co-worker bought a Lexus ES. *Everybody* he showed the car to called it a Camry. He returned the thing two months later.

What year was it? The newer ones, from 02? on are hardly recognizable as the same vehicle.

yes they are, they have almost the exact same shape and i think even share taillights/headlights

Infiniti is just as guilty with the I30. The ones from 2000 +/- 4 years look identical to the maxima from that year. Anyone who fell for that trick was paying heavily for name.

Personally, I think one of the better examples of GM badge engineering is the Saabaru. I guess it just wasn't for the masses and never really took off but seemed to be more intelligent than slapping a sunfire badge on a cavalier.

Stargazer wrote: Infiniti is just as guilty with the I30. The ones from 2000 +/- 4 years look identical to the maxima from that year. Anyone who fell for that trick was paying heavily for name.

My Mom bought an I30t in '98 because she could get it CHEAPER than the fully loaded Maxima SE she was looking for.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Good think you can all *justify* your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If *that* is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty. If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice. Eric

I agree.... but if i'm going to swallow badge engineering, i'd like larger differences, PERSONALLY. Toyota and Honda, and even Nissan deliver that for me. GM does not. Any moron can see Cobalt = Ion. Really, WE are the only people that sees Camry = Lexus ES. Ymmv.

A buddy of mine bought his wife an Infiniti SUV....QX4 I think. He would get so pissed when I asked how she liked the Nissan......and I wasn't doing it on purpose......at first. He corrected me everytime. Yeah they are so different.....

08 or 09. Looked exactly like his bosses Camry. Even the same beige color. Boss got a G8 GT, he ended up with a SUV of some sort.

Cotton wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Good think you can all *justify* your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If *that* is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty. If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice. Eric

I agree.... but if i'm going to swallow badge engineering, i'd like larger differences, PERSONALLY. Toyota and Honda, and even Nissan deliver that for me. GM does not. Any moron can see Cobalt = Ion. Really, WE are the only people that sees Camry = Lexus ES. Ymmv.

A buddy of mine bought his wife an Infiniti SUV....QX4 I think. He would get so pissed when I asked how she liked the Nissan......and I wasn't doing it on purpose......at first. He corrected me everytime. Yeah they are so different.....

I'm trying to stay within like... recent history.

The old Lexus ES was EXACTLY like the Camry. To a T. I'm not arguing against that.

Most of the argument in this thread is about current lineup, i believe. If i misread, then disregard everything i've posted, as i have completely missed the point of the thread.

Strizzo wrote: one that really got me was when they went from the cavalier to the cobalt and said "here you go, this one is ALL NEW" and it looked exactly like the cavalier it replaced. you'd have had to look at the badge on the trunk to know for sure. its easy now though, since all those cavaliers are no longer on the road, so you pretty much know its a cobalt. and no, i don't justify my feelings about badge engineering. its stupid no matter who does it, imo. i know a guy that bought an ES, and i give him crap about overpaying for his camry all the time.

Put the two side by side and look at the differences.

Hell put the Astra and the Cobalt side by side and look at the similarities.

All Astras are getting the 5 lug wheels. Most G5s are getting the 5 lug wheels and all SPORT package Cobalts get the 5 lug wheels... I have no reasoning for this but it has been noted.

^^^ Parts bin engineering. You have a Cobalt and you want bigger brakes, you rob the Malibu parts bin for bigger brakes and you get the 5 bolt wheels at the same time.

Look up parts bin engineering and you'll see a picture of the original Fiero

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Cotton wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Good think you can all *justify* your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If *that* is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty. If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice. Eric

I agree.... but if i'm going to swallow badge engineering, i'd like larger differences, PERSONALLY. Toyota and Honda, and even Nissan deliver that for me. GM does not. Any moron can see Cobalt = Ion. Really, WE are the only people that sees Camry = Lexus ES. Ymmv.

A buddy of mine bought his wife an Infiniti SUV....QX4 I think. He would get so pissed when I asked how she liked the Nissan......and I wasn't doing it on purpose......at first. He corrected me everytime. Yeah they are so different.....

I'm trying to stay within like... recent history. The old Lexus ES was EXACTLY like the Camry. To a T. I'm not arguing against that. Most of the argument in this thread is about current lineup, i believe. If i misread, then disregard everything i've posted, as i have completely missed the point of the thread.

okay staying within like.....recent history. 2009 Armada and QX56

Stargazer wrote: Look up parts bin engineering and you'll see a picture of the original Fiero

I like parts bin engineering. Its gotten us the Fiero, Lotus...

Stargazer wrote: Look up parts bin engineering and you'll see a picture of the original Fiero

Actually, if you look it up on google the third hit is this: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/this-solves-the-is-the-300zx-a-supercar-debate/8931/page1/

GM is less guilty of badgineering than it was in the past. When I think badgineering, the GMC Sierra and Chevrolet Silverado come to mind, along with the Chevrolet Venture and Pontiac Transport. Even worse than all of GM is the Mercury complete bandgineered lineup. Ford hasn't created a unique Mercury in decades. Alot of SUV's are still badgineered too. The Sky and Solstice share different enough looks that I'd call the stylineered because the interior components are the same while the shells are different.

The Accord and TL are platform sharing, not in any way badgineered or stylineered.

Heck, parts bin engineering brought us the Spitfire, TR6, MGB (the MGA was a pretty radical departure from the 'T' series before them) Austin Healeys, Jensen Healey, 240/260/280Z, Mustangs, Camaros, Barracudas, AMX's, Fieros, ad infinitum. You won't hear me complaining about intelligent parts bin engineering.

Cotton wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Cotton wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Good think you can all *justify* your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If *that* is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty. If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice. Eric

I agree.... but if i'm going to swallow badge engineering, i'd like larger differences, PERSONALLY. Toyota and Honda, and even Nissan deliver that for me. GM does not. Any moron can see Cobalt = Ion. Really, WE are the only people that sees Camry = Lexus ES. Ymmv.

A buddy of mine bought his wife an Infiniti SUV....QX4 I think. He would get so pissed when I asked how she liked the Nissan......and I wasn't doing it on purpose......at first. He corrected me everytime. Yeah they are so different.....

I'm trying to stay within like... recent history. The old Lexus ES was EXACTLY like the Camry. To a T. I'm not arguing against that. Most of the argument in this thread is about current lineup, i believe. If i misread, then disregard everything i've posted, as i have completely missed the point of the thread.

okay staying within like.....recent history. 2009 Armada and QX56

Got me. So... we have two iterations of the same truck, one is MUCH swankier than the other.....

My question is (yes, i admit that two of the same is dumb)..... is this for some reason worse than 5 of the same damn car?

Everyone's defense against GM has been "The Japanese do it too!!!!!"

Yes.... but not to the same extent. The Armada/QX56 almost makes sense, because the infiniti IS that much more upscale.

Cobalt vs. Ion? There is NO excuse for that. Whatsoever.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Cotton wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Cotton wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Good think you can all *justify* your feelings about Badge Engineering where GM= bad, everyone else it's ok. However you look at it, platform sharing is platform sharing. If *that* is what is bad, Toyota and Honda are just as guilty. If you want fewer body choices, I guess that's your choice. Eric

I agree.... but if i'm going to swallow badge engineering, i'd like larger differences, PERSONALLY. Toyota and Honda, and even Nissan deliver that for me. GM does not. Any moron can see Cobalt = Ion. Really, WE are the only people that sees Camry = Lexus ES. Ymmv.

A buddy of mine bought his wife an Infiniti SUV....QX4 I think. He would get so pissed when I asked how she liked the Nissan......and I wasn't doing it on purpose......at first. He corrected me everytime. Yeah they are so different.....

I'm trying to stay within like... recent history. The old Lexus ES was EXACTLY like the Camry. To a T. I'm not arguing against that. Most of the argument in this thread is about current lineup, i believe. If i misread, then disregard everything i've posted, as i have completely missed the point of the thread.

okay staying within like.....recent history. 2009 Armada and QX56

Got me. So... we have two iterations of the same truck, one is MUCH swankier than the other..... My question is (yes, i admit that two of the same is dumb)..... is this for some reason worse than 5 of the same damn car? Everyone's defense against GM has been "The Japanese do it too!!!!!" Yes.... but not to the same extent. The Armada/QX56 almost makes sense, because the infiniti IS that much more upscale. Cobalt vs. Ion? There is NO excuse for that. Whatsoever.

I really don't care if it seems to be much swankier. Wow one has a big shiney grill and wood trim. My point was made. No, it isn't okay that GM does it too. You stated the Japanese have not done it in "recent history", which is the only reason I pointed out the stupid SUVs in the first place.