The Corvette club here runs non Corvettes as "Other' Stock or modified very loosely classed..
The Corvette club here runs non Corvettes as "Other' Stock or modified very loosely classed..
gumby said:ojannen said:Unfortunately, we can't put more cars in CAM because the cars in that class are too slow. An STX prepped BRZ with even a minor power increase would be too fast for the class.
Ding Ding Ding! The majority of CAM participants are not the few gnarly fast cars you see promoting the class. Most are way under prep and under driven for the open ruleset and the PAX is way soft compared to the potential because of this. Add in a bunch of imports that are arguably better suited to the sport in design and weight, you upset the balance CAM is trying to maintain and drive away the very people CAM is trying to bring in.
Age rules prevent a BR-Z from competing. It seems like the apparent gap between most of the cars and the fast cars already create a situation where people have a class to play in with the cars they want to build, and if there are people who aren't already driven away by cars prepared closer to the limits of the rules, why would they be driven away by imports? Is it that they don't mind being beaten (they are being beaten), but don't want to be beaten by an import? Or, hopefully, is it that this is a class which is suitable to the cars they want to build, and they look forward to someday perhaps developing their cars into winners, whether or not they ever actually get there?
Again, the openness of the rules should greatly reduce the importance of intrinsic engineering differences, and CAM-T vs CAM-S should address weight issues. I can see that it's possible that there may be a perception issue with folks with underdeveloped F-bodies getting beaten by underdeveloped Z-cars, but it's all the more frustrating in the face of the notion that it is only a perception issue because the rules really allow for a level playing field.
The second you let a 240Z or whatever into CAM and it beats up on all the local guys running Chevelles, those guys perceive that they no longer have a class for them, and they stop showing up.
Note the word in italics. Perception is a big part of attracting casual racers. The Chevelle guys can handle losing to a Mustang or Camaro because they perceive that car as being more or less similar to their own. They don't want to lose to a car they perceive as completely different.
This is why the WRX got kicked out of ESP. If a guy in a third gen Camaro loses to a 4th gen, oh well. But if he loses to an AWD turbo car, in his mind it becomes "How am I supposed to compete with those cars? Ban 'em."
As has been said, regional clubs can make whatever classes they want. As a guy racing a Camaro, I think a classic import class would be really cool.
So CAM is the Special Olympics of autox?
In reply to Will :
You'll note that I was careful to use the word perception in my statement.
I'd rather have the place to tinker, but I guess I was also trying to tease out just that statement: It's an autocross with the same avoidance of competition that brought us the 1977 Thunderbird.
Keith Tanner said:So CAM is the Special Olympics of autox?
Pretty much. AStreet Vettes regularly out raw time CAMS.
CAMT and to a lesser extent CAMC are fine since they actually capture a group of people who AUTOX'd but not with the SCCA.
Import CAM might be the right place to run my 25 yr old, Japanese import sedan with a factory V8 and a 5 speed manual trans swap.
The last time I autocrossed, I was on all season tires and the only car in F Modified because of some suspension tweaks. Never bothered again.
I'm not a fan of more classes, I'm a fan of less classes.
In reply to Ransom :
A low minimum weight cannot be added to the CAM class because it is designed to capture cars that currently run in Good Guys or Optima Ultimate Street Car competitions. Those events have a rule that cars can weigh no less than 95% of the published weight of the car.
The problem with the BRZ in CAM is that it makes speed in a different way to the American cars: maximizing cornering speed vs maximizing straight line speed. If they were in the same class, the winner would be course dependent rather than driver dependent. An M3 makes a little more sense to be in the CAM class because it is also a heavy, high power car. I think that the Pontiac Solstice is probably going to get kicked out if someone ever brings a well prepped one to a major event.
There is already a class where highly modified imports and muscle cars can compete in Street Modified. The imports won and the muscle cars rarely show up anymore.
You can run your V8 powered miata or insert your import here in SM so why would we need a CAM-I class? There isn't a lot of classic imports out there that want to autocross. CAM is great for those good guy runners to come play in SCCA. If someone wanted to really build a car for it, they would run circles around the current CAM field.
In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :
Not only a CIM class, but a street class like the Aristocrats class from a few years ago. There's many Crown Vics, Infinitis, and even Full Size FWD GM rides for sale dirt cheap it seems.
Will said:This is why the WRX got kicked out of ESP. If a guy in a third gen Camaro loses to a 4th gen, oh well. But if he loses to an AWD turbo car, in his mind it becomes "How am I supposed to compete with those cars? Ban 'em."
Off topic, but hilariously the Mazdaspeed6 is still left in ESP, which is a turbo AWD car. And there is one that is built to the hilt and extremely competitive.
Knurled. said:The last time I autocrossed, I was on all season tires and the only car in F Modified because of some suspension tweaks. Never bothered again.
I'm not a fan of more classes, I'm a fan of less classes.
FWIW, there is nothing prohibiting you from moving into other higher classes with more cars. An FP car with the limited mods you describe probably also falls under, FSP, SMF, XP and possibly a few others. We always get 1-2 people at our local events that sign up for obscure classes and run by themselves, but they seem to have fun and they win their trophy just like everyone else.
Why not enter a more common class with additional cars? at a local event especially it's fairly likely you won't be the only underprepared car in the class.
Indy region does that. SMS is a 200TW class for just about anything
Attached is my attempt back in January of 2017, the local SCCA group is help full and connected to the National office.
http://forums.solo2.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9377
I again have access, for the weekend, to the BMW M Coupe that started my question on the board. Now that it is running a supercharger it might not fit the "CAM" world, locally we have "CST",running 200 TW, for street driven cars that are not inside a SCCA box.
I do enjoy driving cars that are not quite stock'ish. We are running at El Toro, in Irvine on the weekend of July 21-22 if you're in So-Cal.
David
bmw88rider said:You can run your V8 powered miata or insert your import here in SM so why would we need a CAM-I class? There isn't a lot of classic imports out there that want to autocross. CAM is great for those good guy runners to come play in SCCA. If someone wanted to really build a car for it, they would run circles around the current CAM field.
Because there's more to tinkering than engine swaps! As soon as you touch suspension pickup points you're in XP. Maybe it makes more sense to let SM be slightly more CAM-like by removing that stipulation.
Really, any foreign cars that need their suspension rejiggered that much are old enough that they probably need the help against modern cars as badly as the old American cars do.
ztnedman1 said:Pretty much. AStreet Vettes regularly out raw time CAMS.
I would wonder if that is more down to driver ability than the level of car prep. Or how well a CAMS car is actually prepped for the class. On one end you'll have guys who show up and just run. On the other, you have guys like JG who are in the process of prepping a C5Z to the full extent allowed by the rules.
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