So, I am going megasquirt....

Kind of a learn me thread.

After fighting for months with the obd1 gm ecm, the tuner, the laptop, the software, etc, I broke down. berkeleying pissed. Wife and I had a fairly lengthy talk after she helped me pick stuff up that landed in the driveway. Yep, that's pissed. Got over $500 in that setup....

Anyway, she asked why I couldn't make it work. Boils down to a limited pool of tuners (2), very difficult to find information, no real support for what I'm trying to do, and limited/confusing/contradictory documentation.

Half of the answers that I have found have been on the megasquirt sites. Just adapted to the gm stuff.

I downloaded tuner studio and the megamanual tonight for me to go through. Looks like, at first blush, very well documented and easy to use and understand. Tuner studio looks much simpler and user friendly than tunerpro.

So far, are my impressions matching user experience?

Next, I got to shopping. Using diyautotune, as they are a advertiser and forum presence here. At the moment, looks like either megasquirt 2 or microsquirt will do what I need. There is a $100 price difference once you add the harness to megasquirt 2. Seems like the microsquirt is more limited for the future, but I'm not sure how true that is. Microsquirt would also require a pwm to stepper iac adapter for me, adding 75 to the cost. Haven't found much on how well the adapters work, so need experience there.

So, which do I want, and why? When I called diyautotune, the sales guy immediately tried to get me to ms3. Much higher price point, and out of the budget.

Car is a solid roller cam, batch fire, tuned port injection small block. I used all gm tuned port sensors, ignition components, iac, harness, etc. It's in a mopar with a 5 speed. I want drivability and reliability with minimal aggravation after setup and tuning. Will microsquirt or megasquirt get me there? Which one is better for me? I have computer control of fans, fuel pump, ac on idle increase, and engine. Only further planned engine update is a centrifugal supercharger, but I've been planning that for a decade and am now closer. I plan to stay distributor and single coil for appearance.

So far, which one?

Next is the auto tuning feature. I read about someone's experience with it on here, and it sounded like the best thing since sex. I know that this feature will require a wideband. I'm thinking about the spartan 2 due to cost. What are the experiences with autotune, and maybe even the spartan?

Lastly, there seems to be a lot of talk about offsets and noise on the forums. What needs to be done or learned to minimize or eliminate this? Or is it a non issue for what I am trying to do?

Is there any good write ups about switching a tuned port from gm computer to megasquirt?

What questions am I not asking?

I'm MS'ed 3 motors: 4AGE 20 valve, 22R, HD 883. The 20v and 22R were MS2 based. All used Squirt n Spark code, although the sportster had a separate ignition system. Tuner Studio is after my time at this. I used the old tuning software and used the auto tune feature to get in the ball park, then manually tuned the rest of the way with a laptop in the passenger seat. All use a narrow band O2 sensor. I'm putting a turbo on a 1nzfe in Dr.L's Europa. That will use a wide band and probably MS3.

Get the harness with the stuff written on the wires. Only way to go.

You want an MS2

You want to run Extra code.

So forget everything you read in the megamanual

and read this http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/

I prefer the v3.0 main board as it is more versatile, I custom build them for each project.

I use the Innovate O2 https://www.diyautotune.com/product/innovate-standalone-gauge-kit-w-lc-2-green-db-gauge-3873/ with the dash gauge because there is no check engine light.

AutoTune is a feature of the registered version of Tuner Studio and makes it easy to tune single handed. Get a stable idle manually and correct your AFR table in the idle area to what the motor wants. Then turn autotune loose and let it work its magic. Start with the default tables and it should be close enough get you started.

Plan your install before grabbing any tools. Draw your interface circuits to go between the car wiring and the MS wiring diagram. Follow the grounding and power supply recommendations. Use the HEI as a signal source only run the coil with the output in the MS or do a crank trigger and wasted spark distributor-less ignition. Use good OEM style supression wires and resistor plugs. Batch fire the injectors unless you have a gonzo or boosted motor with big injectors. Do not use low impedance injectors without a damn good reason, I don't think there is one anymore. Dont try to use oversized injectors. Big injectors slobber on small squirts.

Get this USB adapter https://www.diyautotune.com/product/usb-to-serial-adapter-works-with-tunerstudio/ To avoid any noise issues with the USB (no USB cable or a very short 6" one).

Have fun!

Have you looked at FiTech? I'm considering a purchase to replace carb on a V-8. Addresses the low-hassle factor you are looking for and may work from my read of your situation. More tailored for carb replacement apps but does offer data logging and ability, though not requirement, for access via laptop. Reviews seem solid, price point is impressive and they are offering a rebate thru the end of May.

Sorry if it sounds salesy but I'm pretty impressed by what I've seen and heard so far.

There are two versions of MSII the 3.0 and the 3.57. As bentwrench mentioned, the 3.0 is more user friendly. The big difference between the two is the 3.0 is 'through hole technology' and the 3.57 is 'surface mount technology'. Generally, the 'through hole' is easier to modify and repair.

Autotune is magical for correcting the Air/fuel table but it will not tune the ignition table. The ignition table still requires manual tuning.

To avoid massive problems, the wideband and the megasquirt both need to be grounded to the engine block. Another area of concern is spark plug wires. The plug wires will radiate a lot of energy that can be picked up through one of the sensor wires. Properly routing good quality plug wires will help keep the noise from getting into the Megasquirt.

Ms2V3. Best bang for your buck. It has been around for a long time so just about every variant of setup has been tried.

I have an MS for sale...

Javelin wrote: I have an MS for sale...

Go on...

Burrito wrote:

Javelin wrote: I have an MS for sale...

Go on...

Please....

Ok. I want to say thank you all for the information so far. I didn't even know that I was looking at 2 different megasquirt 2 setups. I'll get the through hole.

I'll be buying assembled, as my hands shake too much for me to consider building my own.

I run msd Street fire plug wires.

So, grounds directly to the block solves most problems?

I'll also download the latest stuff that you suggested bentwrench.

Currently reading the manual for the 3.0 off msextra. Please. Keep up the conversation and education. This is a good chunk of money, and a vast departure from anything else that I have ever done. Usually I'm adapting a stock efi setup, or a pre-made efi retrofit kit.

Dusterbd13 wrote: Currently reading the manual for the 3.0 off msextra. Please. Keep up the conversation and education. This is a good chunk of money, and a vast departure from anything else that I have ever done. Usually I'm adapting a stock efi setup, or a pre-made efi retrofit kit.

Well, once you get a little further through the manual, hit up the board with your questions and we'll try to answer them.

I can say that the difficult part of it, is getting the engine started and idling decently. Once you do that, then the rest isn't too bad.

Go slowly and save your changes with different file names to have a way to go back if your change doesn't work.

wawazat wrote: Have you looked at FiTech? I'm considering a purchase to replace carb on a V-8. Addresses the low-hassle factor you are looking for and may work from my read of your situation. More tailored for carb replacement apps but does offer data logging and ability, though not requirement, for access via laptop. Reviews seem solid, price point is impressive and they are offering a rebate thru the end of May. Sorry if it sounds salesy but I'm pretty impressed by what I've seen and heard so far.

Reading post like this one drive me even further in to the Fitech or Holley Sniper camp. Very little interest in getting a Phd in computer systems design and programing just to drive my hot-rod.

When Megasquirting the TR6, I separated the ignition from everything else as much as possible. The plugs/wires/coils are on the driver's side and everything else runs down the passenger side. The MS and wideband controller is grounded to the same point on the block. There were no issues with noise/ground loops except for the magnetic crank angle sensor located too near the cooling fan. A Hall effect sensor fixed that issue.

Hang in there. There's a lot of stuff to get right with Megasquirt, but the support/documentation is very good.

ok, the manual says, and joe implied, that sensors and wiring too close to ignition and other high amp stuff will cause issues. what is considered too close?

and also, what does high resistance relate to as far as grounds go? .01 ohms?

NOHOME wrote:

wawazat wrote: Have you looked at FiTech? I'm considering a purchase to replace carb on a V-8. Addresses the low-hassle factor you are looking for and may work from my read of your situation. More tailored for carb replacement apps but does offer data logging and ability, though not requirement, for access via laptop. Reviews seem solid, price point is impressive and they are offering a rebate thru the end of May. Sorry if it sounds salesy but I'm pretty impressed by what I've seen and heard so far.

Reading post like this one drive me even further in to the Fitech or Holley Sniper camp. Very little interest in getting a Phd in computer systems design and programing just to drive my hot-rod.

Thats the thing, people think MegaSquirt requires that and it simply doesn't. Sure if you're doing something esoteric then you may need to get into the code a bit or modify components on the board, but for 99% of the stuff, it simply isn't necessary.

Wire up the ECU to the sensors, fire up your laptop with TunerStudio, connect to the ECU, set your variables, get the engine started and start tuning. Pretty much the same as FITech.

MS is a custom made by you EFI retrofit.

After you have completed this phase of automotive apprenticedom you will have a whole new understanding of EFI!

The rabbit hole is as deep as you want it to be.

The beauty of MS is, it is so easy to get started. The ones who have trouble are those who put up walls and throw in the towel the first time they bump their nose. Dont take shortcuts, dont make assumptions, get your head wrapped around the system one area at a time. Dont try to do it all at once. Read the whole manual but print out the areas that apply to your install. Dont try to do your first install on a car that has to run on monday, you need to be relaxed and focus, not frazzled trying to meet a deadline.

Keep it simple instead of adding layers, that is why I said to use the HEI as a signal source not an output. Use a 7 or 8 pin module in a locked (small cap) distributor, and run the MS off the high level output it provides (helps avoid noise issues). But fire the coil with the MS driver this gives you full control and if you have trouble you dont have to look more than one place for the problem. This is also the best way to do an MSD if you go that route.

Low resistance wires can be an issue, if you have noise issues dont hang onto them, OEM wires are fine. Standard copper core plugs, no exotic kaka (try that stuff later if you must).

I'm not sure who you spoke to when you called, but it may have been that you brought up some sort of MS3-specific feature. An MS2 can do what's listed here, but will need a couple modifications for the A/C idle up function to work. We can supply modifications for that on either a V3.0 or V3.57 board if you don't want to solder them on - for a quote for that, email us at websales@diyautotune.com.

NOHOME wrote:

wawazat wrote: Have you looked at FiTech? I'm considering a purchase to replace carb on a V-8. Addresses the low-hassle factor you are looking for and may work from my read of your situation. More tailored for carb replacement apps but does offer data logging and ability, though not requirement, for access via laptop. Reviews seem solid, price point is impressive and they are offering a rebate thru the end of May. Sorry if it sounds salesy but I'm pretty impressed by what I've seen and heard so far.

Reading post like this one drive me even further in to the Fitech or Holley Sniper camp. Very little interest in getting a Phd in computer systems design and programing just to drive my hot-rod.

Only marginally better than a carb and keeps most of the shortcomings.

No PHD needed you chop down the forest one tree at a time.

Or you place your fate in the hands of a corporate entity.

I have been asked to work on a reasonable number of NAME BRAND "holy grail" EFI systems and wont recommend that route to anyone.

Dusterbd13 wrote: ok, the manual says, and joe implied, that sensors and wiring too close to ignition and other high amp stuff will cause issues. what is considered too close? and also, what does high resistance relate to as far as grounds go? .01 ohms?

The wires that really matter for interference are the crank sensor and cam sensor (if you use one).

For both, use shielded wire. Done.

MadScientistMatt wrote: I'm not sure who you spoke to when you called, but it may have been that you brought up some sort of MS3-specific feature. An MS2 can do what's listed here, but will need a couple modifications for the A/C idle up function to work. We can supply modifications for that on either a V3.0 or V3.57 board if you don't want to solder them on - for a quote for that, email us at websales@diyautotune.com.

A couple of friends of mine also called to get some recommendations on what to use on their rides and got the MS3 "upsell" so it seems to be a bit more prevalent than you imagine.

That said, one can just go to the site and order what is desired/needed, so this is a minor problem all things considered.

ill be using the small cap HEI and coil. as well as the diyautotune premade 8 foot harness, which I believe is pre-shielded. so this will solve the problem?

ok, im using standard ev1 style bosch injectors. these are low impedence, if im right. the manual mentions needing modifications to the :flyback circuit" in some cases. what?

bentwrench wrote:

NOHOME wrote:

wawazat wrote: Have you looked at FiTech? I'm considering a purchase to replace carb on a V-8. Addresses the low-hassle factor you are looking for and may work from my read of your situation. More tailored for carb replacement apps but does offer data logging and ability, though not requirement, for access via laptop. Reviews seem solid, price point is impressive and they are offering a rebate thru the end of May. Sorry if it sounds salesy but I'm pretty impressed by what I've seen and heard so far.

Reading post like this one drive me even further in to the Fitech or Holley Sniper camp. Very little interest in getting a Phd in computer systems design and programing just to drive my hot-rod.

Only marginally better than a carb and keeps most of the shortcomings. No PHD needed you chop down the forest one tree at a time. Or you place your fate in the hands of a corporate entity. I have been asked to work on a reasonable number of NAME BRAND "holy grail" EFI systems and wont recommend that route to anyone.

That would be my point. I am perfectly happy with a well tuned carb. The problem is that very few are well tuned and even then, even the best carbs suffer from being an open loop system and have blind spots. Cold start would be one of the worst complaints I have with a carb and the Fitech seems to handle this just fine. Same with the raw fuel smell out the tailpipe that most classics suffer from.

I have met a handful of MS users. They seem to be perpetually on their laptop tweaking something. No idea what they are doing. While mildly curious, I also don't really care, plus I don't want to travel with a laptop in the car at all times.

From what I can tell, most of the "Shortcomings" of the Fitech are airflow/fuel separation concerns not being as good as port injection.

And stay away from the Fitech Fuel Command Center. Seems to have a 100% failure rate on the vent design.

To wawazat: What is this rebate you speak of for the Fitech?