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pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/9/19 6:21 p.m.

Still in "next project" evaluating & planning mode here, and have some questions about the SR20DET.

I've wanted to have another Z32 300ZX badly since the last one I had, but I have a strong distaste for the VG30DE's packaging. I was initially looking at RB25DET swaps, but they are $$$ and I have since learned that they tend to have oiling issues when used on track (that, while not unsolvable, had me at least looking at other options). That led me to the SR20DET.

For some reason, and don't ask me why, a lot of Nissan guys pop a blood vessel at the thought of swapping a four-cylinder into a 300ZX. Like, it catches more flak than an LS swap (which I am not interested in). But the few people who have done it say it solves a LOT of the Z32's issues - significantly easier service, 200-300lb weight reduction over the nose of the car, etc. I have seen a few people claim that a SR20-powered Z32 with the right suspension setup will give a FD RX-7 a run for its money...and THAT appeals to me.

So, as far as the SR20DET itself goes - I'm aware that there are "red top" (early), "black top" (mid) and "notch top" (late) versions. It seems like the notch tops are the most desirable with a ball bearing turbo and VCT, but is there anything really wrong with any of them? From the searching I've done it sounds like these engines are pretty well-regarded and take abuse pretty well compared to the RB-series. Is this accurate or do they have some kind of Achilles' heel problem that I'm missing?

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/9/19 7:42 p.m.

There was a thread about crankcase ventilation issues when running at high RPM for extended periods.  I don't recall if it was ever resolved.  (Sounded to me like the head needed an external oil drain to the pan, and the breather ports in the valve cover made huge - and IIRC people also said this was mandatory for the RB as well)

 

Trivia:  I had acquired an Evo VIII turbo and exhaust manifold back when they were $100 Craigslist items and I was playing with transverse VWs.  I ended up reselling it to a guy who was going to redrill the head on a B13 SE-R and bolt it up, as the port spacing was about the same.

 

He also had a 4G63-engined 3000GT VR4.  Man, it looked like you could climb in to the engine bay and walk around.

MrChaos
MrChaos GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/9/19 7:49 p.m.

it seems some of the drift guys are getting rid of SR20's for K swaps since a built sr will make 300hp but an ebay turbo k24 will make 400hp. they fit in somewhat the same place and you can actually find them in the junkyards.

jfryjfry
jfryjfry Dork
9/9/19 8:07 p.m.

I have a jdm s13 with a factory sr20det redtop. 

Its an amazing motor.  I have done several track days and never had any issue with it. 

Mine is pretty stock.  Slightly upgraded turbo, tubular header, exhaust, cam and intercooler. 

Turbo-manifold gasket leaking/blown out is the only issue that persists.  

 

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/9/19 8:10 p.m.
MrChaos said:

it seems some of the drift guys are getting rid of SR20's for K swaps since a built sr will make 300hp but an ebay turbo k24 will make 400hp. they fit in somewhat the same place and you can actually find them in the junkyards.

Took me a minute to realize you were talking about Honda K24s, and not Nissan KA24s.

 

Was thinking, KA24s are rare as heck anymore.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
9/9/19 8:18 p.m.

I fully support this.  I've pondered it a few times.  A SR20 swapped slicktop should be down around 2800lbs.  Double wishbones, fat tires, low CG and small exterior dimensions.  What's not to like?

I'd also be ok with a K24.

bigben
bigben Reader
9/9/19 9:23 p.m.

Speaking of KA's. You could also look at doing a KA24DE-T. There is a lot of debate on the Nissan forums of KA vs SR. Both can make similar  power and have aftermarket  support. The KAs can be found cheap due to all the SR swapped 240sx. KA has more low end torque which would be good in a heavier car, and I if I remember correctly a RB25 bellhouse will allow you to use the stronger Z32 trans with the KA.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/10/19 7:57 a.m.

300lbs lighter? That's impressive!

Patientzero
Patientzero Reader
9/10/19 11:57 a.m.

I can't access youtube from work but later I will post videos of my S15 with SR20DET on the dyno and on Mugello circuit.  I have beat the poo out of several SR20's.  

 

 

_
_ HalfDork
9/10/19 12:23 p.m.

Don’t forget the ca18det, which is iron block (1000hp? Yes.). There is also the ca20 block, so you can get the extra displacement. 

Then there is the rb20det. I had this motor in my s13. A wonderful engine, cheap as heck (cheaper than a sr20det engine from an importer!). Has all the right noises, weighs less Than the gigantic rb26. 

The only downside to the rb20 is you get the same displacement as a four cylinder, but two more cylinders hang over the nose. For my drift car it wasn’t really an issue. You might notice it on track. 

I fully support anything you do to a z32. They need more love. 

Turbine
Turbine GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/10/19 7:48 p.m.

How difficult is the swap? I’ve always wanted to own a z32, but the VG30DETT kinda scared me from a maintenance perspective, and I couldn’t get excited about an NA car. This sounds like the perfect compromise. 

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/10/19 8:01 p.m.
_ said:

Then there is the rb20det. I had this motor in my s13. A wonderful engine, cheap as heck (cheaper than a sr20det engine from an importer!). Has all the right noises, weighs less Than the gigantic rb26. 

The only downside to the rb20 is you get the same displacement as a four cylinder, but two more cylinders hang over the nose. For my drift car it wasn’t really an issue. You might notice it on track.

 

I like the RB20 because small sixes make me giggle.  But "cheap" isn't a good term for them. RB20DETs with trans attached seem to be $2500, and the only thing more depressing than that is that IS cheaper than a SR20DET engine/trans.

 

K24A2s seem to fall in the $700 range, though...  You can do a lot with the $2300 not spent on a SR.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
9/10/19 8:11 p.m.
Knurled. said:

 the only thing more depressing than that is that IS cheaper than a SR20DET engine/trans.

 

Well, they pull a premium a week before race wars...

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/10/19 8:41 p.m.

My understanding from looking into all the different options is that it really comes down to where you want to spend the time/money.

CA18DET parts support is waning so despite being a nice enough engine it is a worse option with each passing year simply due to being old. The RB25DET is a total bruiser of an engine but heavy and requires oiling system mods + machine work to not devour its own bottom end on track. RB20DETs are novel but have the unfortunate trait of making less power and torque than the SR20 while also requiring the PITA mods a RB25 needs. DIY KA24DE turbo setups are a lot of bang for the buck but a big time investment with the "nickel and dime" potential...for what I want to do the SR20 is worth it to me as something I can more or less put in the car and incrementally build up.

As far as what it takes to put a SR20 in a Z32, here's an overview from one of the first guys to do it:

Crossmember: the crossmember requires some modification to clear the sr20 oil pan. The vg is rear sump while the sr is front sump. There is not enough space or material on the crossmember to allow it to be modified to run an aftermarket lower oil pan. Modification is not complicated nor costly and most moderately experienced performance or welding shops are capable of the job

Engine mounts: I currently offer custom cnc machined mounting brackets that adapt the oem or nismo sr20det engine mounts to the z32 crossmember. That will allow users to choose their stiffness level preference, either oem or stiffer Nismo, to allow the sr20 engine to drop into the z. Cost is $350/pair and each pair has an individual serial number. Message me for purchase info.

Intercooler piping: I had custom fmic piping fabricated for a direct swap but will not have it manufactured due to lack of demand. You will have to have your own piping fabricated.

Exhaust: I had a custom exhaust from the turbo to the catback fabricated but will not have it manufactured. The exhaust I ran consisted of a PBM Cobra 3" divorced elbow pipe modified for the z32 that runs to a dual 2.5" y-pipe and connects to any 2.5" z32 catback.

Wiring: this part is not complicated for the electrically inclined, you will utilize the original sr20 engine harness and modify it similarly to how it is modified to work in a 240sx. I have completed a wiring diagram that I have uploaded into the documents section that can be used and I may also offer a service to complete the wiring for customers.

Cooling: any 240sx sr20 radiator drops right into the na z32 core support. I ran a koyo with a custom efan setup, but the stock clutch fan can be utilized with a custom shroud. I used sr20 radiator hoses and the top hose will need to be trimmed down since the radiator sits closer to the motor than in a 240sx.

Transmission: a mazworx type transmission adapter bracket for vg to sr is utilized with the z32 transmission. Machining of the bellhousing edge is required for the adapter. This allows you to keep everything from the bellhousing back stock. Oem or 1-piece z32 driveshaft can be utilized. It will use the sr20 starter and flywheel along with any clutch setup you prefer. Na z32 and sr20 clutches are interchangeable, so if you already have an upgraded clutch in your na you can keep it.

Fuel pump: the sr20 chassis in Japan utilize a dual stage fuel pump controller, exactly like the z32. Wiring will allow you to utilize the stock z32 fpc with the sr20 which is controlled by the ecu. This retains oem function and prevents any further wiring headaches.

Fuel lines: the z32 has fuel lines that run down the left frame rail, while on the sr20 chassis the exhaust runs that direction and the fuel rail is on the right side. You will remove the fuel hard lines from the left frame rail and move it to the right frame rail, where there are already did threaded holes for the brackets. Use soft fuel lines in the rear to connect to the hardlines from the tank hardlines and soft lines in the front to run to the rails. Slight bending of the hardlines in the front will be necessary. I recommend Gates Barricade for the soft fuel lines as it is durable, better than oem and is rated for e85.

Power steering: you will utilize the sr20 power steering pump. The reservoir can be run any number of ways, I located mine by the brake booster but it can also be under the nose panel or somewhere else in the engine bay. The high pressure line will be the same aftermarket braided lines offered for the 240sx. Low pressure lines will be the typical cut-to-length heater hose.

Ac: while it is possible to retain ac, custom lines are required and somewhat costly. You will need access to a shop with an ac fitting press, plus all of the original fittings, braided (or rubber) lines, and -AN fittings welded to the original stock fittings plus -AN fittings for the braided lines. If using rubber lines, a local ac shop should be able to use your existing lines to fabricate custom lines.

The outcome: expect a car that is very nimble compared to a vg-powered z. Mine weighed in just over 2800lbs after just the swap, so you could easily get down below 2600lbs by removing interior, stereo, ac components, half the exhaust system, etc. Your fuel efficiency and reliability increase significantly while maintenance costs drop with a drivetrain that is far easier to work on. Parts are readily available and sr engines have been known to produce over 1,000hp, so the performance potential per dollar is extremely high. You will have the edge in road course or autox racing since your brakes will be more efficient and g-forces will have less of an impact. Imagine a BRZ/FRZ with a turbo, and that is how your car should feel after the swap.

WonkoTheSane
WonkoTheSane GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/10/19 10:06 p.m.

We run a sr20det in our Champcar 240sx, it's a great engine.

Theo onlyreliability problems we have had with it have all been things like the manifold to turbo studs failing due to heat cycling, the turbo to down pipe studs failing for the same reason, etc.  Get the inconel turbo hardware from flyin Miata (best price we've found) and upgrade the down pipe studs to Audi hardware (10mm instead of 8mm? It might be 12mm instead of 10mm, I forget).

We could not keep a KA24 together for more than a race or two, and we're not the only ones.. I wouldn't run a KA.

The hot ticket seems to be a vq swap to v6 nowadays.  Less complexity than a turbo, and less heat for the same power.

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/11/19 9:41 a.m.

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I actually would prefer that in the grand scheme of things, but the VQ engine apparently has some bizarre fitment issues in the Z32 platform. When I first started looking into Z32 swaps I was confused by the fact that only a couple of people have gone with the VQ, but it turns out the height of the engine is a major problem for the Z32 engine bay and IIRC there are also some challenging issues with transmission/shifter placement, etc. People were saying a RB25DET is easy by comparison...

WonkoTheSane
WonkoTheSane GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/11/19 9:49 a.m.
pointofdeparture said:

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I actually would prefer that in the grand scheme of things, but the VQ engine apparently has some bizarre fitment issues in the Z32 platform. When I first started looking into Z32 swaps I was confused by the fact that only a couple of people have gone with the VQ, but it turns out the height of the engine is a major problem for the Z32 engine bay and IIRC there are also some challenging issues with transmission/shifter placement, etc. People were saying a RB25DET is easy by comparison...

Ah, gotcha..   Yeah, sorry, I'm not a Nissan pro, I'm just a driver :)

I can say that with a turbo track car, heat management in general is the hardest issue to solve.   Although we've never had problems with the engine internals, we've fried the wideband O2 wiring, brake booster & lines (when the turbo separated from the manifold due to stud fatigue.  That was entertaining for the driver!) and had some coolant & oil temp issues until we cut a vent in the hood.   Oh, and of course various boots on the intake side either getting scorched or popping off.  I'd imagine that studs & bolts related to the exhaust will be a service item due to heat cycling once you get that all nailed down.

We've gotten pretty good at fabricobbling heat shields from walmart drip trays in the pits :)

 

N Sperlo
N Sperlo MegaDork
9/11/19 10:34 a.m.
Knurled. said:

I like the RB20 because small sixes make me giggle.  But "cheap" isn't a good term for them. RB20DETs with trans attached seem to be $2500, and the only thing more depressing than that is that IS cheaper than a SR20DET engine/trans.

$2500?! Umm... I've got an RB20 in a rotting S13 chassis I'll sell ya for 1200.... Just please take the chassis, too...

_
_ HalfDork
9/11/19 4:41 p.m.

In reply to N Sperlo :

Welp. Problem solved here. And as far as “the rb engine has oiling issues to take care of”, the Sr engines have valve train issues, so pick your poison.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/11/19 5:01 p.m.

In reply to N Sperlo :

I know a guy up here who paid $1500 for an S13 that had no engine, or interior,or windows, and it was kind of bent...

 

Don't tempt me for a flip opportunity.

 

jfryjfry
jfryjfry Dork
9/11/19 5:27 p.m.
_ said:

In reply to N Sperlo :

Welp. Problem solved here. And as far “the rb engine has oiling issues to take care of”, the Sr engines have valve train issues, so pick your poison.

What are the valvetrain issues?

buzzboy
buzzboy HalfDork
9/11/19 5:48 p.m.

I've read a Mike Kojima article about the followers ejecting themselves with high rpm use.

N Sperlo
N Sperlo MegaDork
9/11/19 6:03 p.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

I've been fending off $500 offers for the last three days. Had a few "I didn't think it would need that much work"s. My favorite, "Dont you think 2k is a little steep?" My respones, "Yep". Had one trade offer for a Lincoln LS and one for a 79 Mercedes Diesel. Still considering the Mercedes lol.

I wish I had the time to drop the motor into a decent body, but for now it's for sale.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/11/19 6:09 p.m.
buzzboy said:

I've read a Mike Kojima article about the followers ejecting themselves with high rpm use.

What did Nissan do with the SR16VE, which was an SR20 with 3/4 the stroke?  It had a higher HP/liter than the Civic Type R and it did it all with RPM.  (Like to say it was 200hp well north of 8000... from a 1600!)

 

Edit:  It was the N1 version that made 197hp, at 7800rpm, with an 8600rpm redline.  Pedestrian SR16s made "only" 175hp.

 

And "followers falling out at high RPM" sounds a lot like the problems the DOHC Neons had, the ultimate cause was oil aeration.  The "fix" with a Neon is to run with the oil a quart low.  Not sure how Nissans would cotton to that.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile Reader
9/11/19 8:14 p.m.

Thread reminds me of my old 240. Bought it for $700, drove it til it blew. Bought CA18det swap that was total bust. Bought used KA that turned out to be flop. Sold it for $700 3 years later. I regret letting that one ago, especially for shape and rare color. Sorry for thread jack 

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