Teach me the ways of the hybrid, O Great Ones

DD#1 (age almost 26, office-type employee, sometime autocrosser) is searching for a newer car to replace her aging bugeye Impreza wagon.  In this thread I was prodding her towards a FiST or FoST as a great all-rounder.  However, she's resistant to that idea and wants to pursue the 2-car route, with a commuter now and a dedicated toy to follow later.  Not my money, not my car, but I want to support her decision making as best I can.

So here are her proposed criteria:

• Budget:  $12k +/-
• Age: as new as practicable in that price range
• Drivetrain:  Hybrid
• Drive:  AWD if available; lower priority than hybrid
• Seating:  4 adults - not too small
• Format:  5-door or small wagon preferred
• Remaining reliable service life: 5-10 years / 50-75,000 miles from purchase

I know very little about hybrids.  Since we tend to keep cars a while, I wonder about battery lifespan, and repair issues with technology I know little about.

I also know very little about CVTs, though it seems most hybrids come with them.  I don't really like the way they drive, and my feelings about them are colored by a vague prejudice caused by perceived reliability issues from 10 years ago.

I remember a recent post here saying that the Prius CVT was different from a 'typical' CVT, and better.  But I don't know if general CVT technology has matured in the last decade and long-term reliability has improved.

I know people here say that the second/third-gen Prii are nice appliances, reliable, and reasonably priced.  I don't really know anything about the Prii since Toyota made it a semi-brand and broke it up into various different sizes / models.

Cars she is considering:

• Prius - which exact model TBD.
• RAV4 Hybrid - AWD available?  Transmission type?  Mechanically similar to Prius? Cute Ute tax.
• Crosstrek Hybrid - ticks her boxes, Subaru experience, AWD, but... CVT.  And headgaskets?
• C-Max - best value on paper, no experience with these, but... CVT.

From online searches, she's found a number of the C-Maxes that fit the budget with reasonable trim levels and mileage.  Based on that and interior space data, that's her current preference, but we've never driven one.  The ones she showed me were all 2013s, first model year, and I vaguely remember some issues with those (though I don't really have any specifics).  Anybody know anything about them?

Same as last thread, thanks in advance for any insight.

Speaking of insights, I showed her an ad for a creampuff 2014 Insight base model, low miles and in her budget, but she was not thrilled.  Measurements and reviews seem to say it's a little smaller inside than the others.

I love my '07 Prius.  I have not updated this thread in a year mostly because there is nothing really to say.  Add a little gas, keep going a long way.  

Bought with 78k.  Now has 107k. No repairs needed.  Bought some tires and they are delightfully cheap in this size. Out the door for $100 each for real name brand tires with long treadwear ratings.  

I am on the factory brake pads.  They are known for going well over 100k miles.  Much of this because of the regenative braking where the braking forces are used to recharge the battery.  

The CVT's used in Subarus seem to be the most reliable, so the Crosstrek Hybrid may not be a bad idea from that standpoint. However the MPG gains over the non-hybrid variant are only 2~3 MPG and it's not a plug-in, so you can't even save on gas for short trips. Also not many were produced, so don't count on junkyard parts availability.

The Priuses are all reliable appliances and get the impressive MPGs a hybrid should, and many are plug-in models. If she wants a hybrid not just for the sake of having a hybrid, this is one that makes sense to own.

I don't know about the others.

My Prius returns as steady 44 mpg in summer months and as low as 38 in winter months. 

Winter and the much more needed heater causes more engine running causing the mpg drop.  

On perfect days of no heat and no AC it can hit 50mpg

I am intrigued by the Lexus CT200H. 

In reply to Woody :

I was too, until I read some reviews of it.  I admit to having never driven one, but I was spectacularly unimpressed by its poorer cousin, the Corolla iM.  I also suspect the Lexus is over budget.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

She lives in an apartment complex, so plugging in at home is going to be difficult.  She's checking to see if they have charging stations at work.

If she wants a decent sized car, she should avoid the Prius C, and just get a Prius, correct?  Any basic insight on the One through Four trim designations?

If a Prius is in the running, then Volts should be too. I didn't search very long or hard but 12k for a car capable of 35 all-electric miles, with just 33k on the clock seems like a pretty solid deal. The 1st gen cars on Fuelly are reporting averages of 65-75mpg

In my very limited experience, I definitely preferred the way the Volt drove to the way the Prius drove.

Yeah, the Volt is a possibility, but how are they with limited plug-in support?  How do they do when driven like a regular car?  I had the impression that the Prius was more of a regular car that could sometimes go electric, while the Volt was an electric car that could sometimes go wireless.

As I said, I don't have much experience with these.

Duke said:

Yeah, the Volt is a possibility, but how are they with limited plug-in support?  How do they do when driven like a regular car?  I had the impression that the Prius was more of a regular car that could sometimes go electric, while the Volt was an electric car that could sometimes go wireless.

As I said, I don't have much experience with these.

Mr. Pasterjak had one and seemed to enjoy it.  I believe there were some articles in the magazine and/or posts here about it.  They are mostly Chevy Cruz underneath, so there are some using lowering springs and better dampers on them with stickier tires to have a bit more fun on their commutes. 

Prius V.. little hatch back wagon.. prius stone like reliability.  I rode in a lot of these things as taxi's in seattle and spoke to many of the drivers about them.  They usually buy them between 75K and 150K miles and run them up to about 400k miles.  At that time they say the engine is worn out and they replace with another one and start again...

https://delaware.craigslist.org/cto/d/2012-prius-wagon-dual/6480748030.html

and

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/d/12-prius-wagon-with-leather/6482577778.html

I also like the volts, but if you want a "Wagon" this is it.  

4cylinder rav4's are not great from mileage and the ones in your price range will be tough to find a hybrid.  

Here are some links I found:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2012-chevy-volt/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/new-cars/2012-37-volt/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/new-cars/2012-chevrolet-volt/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/chevy-volt-question-i-know-we-have-a-few-owners-here/111347/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/any-advise-on-volt-ownership/133307/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/how-to-buy-a-new-volt-for-cheap/132562/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/learn-me-used-chevy-volt/99472/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/yet-another-volt-thread/102195/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/essay-on-volttdi-article/64057/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/chevy-volt/29565/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2012-chevrolet-volt/94854/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/dogs-life-with-the-volts-hatchback/69793/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/chevy-volt/89771/page1/

There's even a NatGeo Ultimate Factories episode on the Volt:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/ultimate-factories-chevy-volt/20340/page1/

The Volt has a ton more "oomph" than the Prius. It also handles a lot better. But if she can't plug it in she's losing one of the best parts of it, the totally gas-free commutes. I would much rather have a Volt than a Prius, and have driven both a fair amount. But I can readily plug in, at home or at work, so that's an easy call for me. It is a hatchback with a nice usable cargo area, and the rear seats are big enough for adults. Pre-2016 Volts are all 4-seaters, since the battery uses the center area.

If she wants a hybrid cute ute.. get a Highlander hybrid.  an 08-10 will have the same drive train as my minivan and be reliable up to 200-300K miles with good maint.  not great mileage in hybrid trim though.

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ctd/d/2008-toyota-highlander-hybrid/6478299355.html

dculberson said:

 Pre-2016 Volts are all 4-seaters, since the battery uses the center area.

This fact alone kills this car for me.

Fueled by Caffeine said:

If she wants a hybrid cute ute.. get a Highlander hybrid.  an 08-10 will have the same drive train as my minivan and be reliable up to 200-300K miles with good maint.  not great mileage in hybrid trim though.

 

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ctd/d/2008-toyota-highlander-hybrid/6478299355.html

The Lexus RX clone of the Highlander was available in a Hybrid from 07-on and the underpinnings are the same as the Highlander, just with more bells and whistles on the inside wrapped in a more jellybean body.

Excellent, thanks for all of this great input.  Especially Stefan and all the Volt links.  I admit the Volt wasn't really on my radar because of challenges to plugging it in regularly.  This car will be used much more like a regular car, without guaranteed plug-ins at either end of the commute.

Cute-ute body style is not really important, and I figured it would come at a penalty to both cost and fuel economy, let alone handling.  Interior space and reliability are more important.  I would assume seating for 4 is adequate, but 5 might be nice on occasion.

Thanks again to all.

I'm late to this thread, but seems like a bunch of other people have said it:  Just buy a Prius.  If you want a ton of space, get a Prius V.  If you want AWD with that space, get a Highlander Hybrid, but that last one can be a bit harder to justify.

I like the Volt, but if she can't plug in at home, its kind of pointless.  When running ICE only, the Prius will easily out-mileage it and it has more space as well.

RE: The Prius CVT.  Its very simple.  Its just 2 electric motors and the ICE feeding the same planetary gearset.  By varying or locking the motors you can get different output speeds with no belts, chains, or other nonsense.  It is also what enables the Prius (MG2 is on the ring gear so spins at output speed all the time) to drive on electric power only unlike offerings from Honda or similar.

I was going to suggest Prius V as well, but see I’ve been beat to it.  That or a regular third gen Prius would be high on my list.  The Ford C Max might not be bad, but make sure she takes an extended test drive to see if the seats are comfortable, especially the headrests.

The Prius (and possibly the C Max, since I think ford licensed their hybrid tech from Toyota) use a single planetary gear set, with the engine and electric motor being inputs, and the driveshafts as the outputs.  Locking up or adjusting the speed of different elements of the gear set are how they make it a CVT.  It’s a much simpler and more robust system than a traditional CVT.  I suspect the only reason it is not more widely used is patents.  Another advantage of the Toyota’s, at least the non plug in models, is they keep the hybrid battery in a relatively narrow range, 40%-60%, I think.  Means the battery packs tend to last for a very long time. 

Edit:ProDarwin beat me by seconds...

My wife has a 2013 C-Max (non-plug-in) which we bought new.  It now has ~70K miles.  

Reliability has been pretty good, though the 12V battery failed pretty early on and was replaced under warranty.  It has had several recalls, though, from ECU programming to air bags and other things I can't remember.  Otherwise I've just changed oil, and it seems pretty much like new (with the exception of the kid detritus).

Driving it is quite reasonable.  It has more personality than a Prius, and drives quite normally.  We get about 39 mph on average.  The overall packaging is quite efficient, and my wife loves the car.  The CVT is pretty unobtrusive, though the engine can get a bit loud and buzzy under full throttle.

Note that the Energi plug-in version has a much higher load floor in the hatch area to house the bigger battery.  Given the lack of charging capability, there's no reason to consider that version anyway.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

That's the kind of awesome details I was looking for.  Thank you.

Can anybody confirm that the C-Max 'transmission' is set up the same way as the Prius?  That would make me feel a lot better.

I have a Prius in disguise. 

Prius drivetrain in a much better looking package with a super nice interior. I have a 70 mike round trip commute and average around 43mpg if I don’t go over 75. The worst mileage so far in super cold temps was 38, so still pretty awesome. 

We own a C-Max as well, purchased used a couple of years ago. Our experience has largely mirrored pkingham's - reliability is excellent mechanically.  I've had it into the shop for the door latch recall, and other than that, nothing but gas/tires/oil. At one point, on a hot summer's day one of the door cards popped free of its rivets and was annoying for a while, but the dealer JB Welded it back into place when they did the door latch recall so it worked out fine. 

Driving experience is much more "normal" than a Prius - it is like they really emphasize it driving like a normal car. MPG is not quite as good as the Prius (we're averaging upper 30s), and the load floor is raised an inch or two off the floor for the hybrid battery.  You feel the weight, but you can hustle the C-Max on mountain roads surprisingly well.

We also test drove the Energi version, it feels MUCH heavier - between that and the severely compromised hatch area we passed on it. At the time, going with a CMax over the Prius got us a car that was 2-3 years newer with correspondingly fewer miles. Overall, it's a nice place to be, fills the commute role quite nicely - given the chance to do it over we would probably make the same decision again.

szeis4cookie said:

At the time, going with a CMax over the Prius got us a car that was 2-3 years newer with correspondingly fewer miles. Overall, it's a nice place to be, fills the commute role quite nicely - given the chance to do it over we would probably make the same decision again.

That's about what I'm finding now, too.  Thanks to both you and pkingham.