Tell Me Why I Shouldn't Build an RA64 Celica Rally Car

Make sure it’s a GT, not a GTS. The solid axle is weak. Upgrade to a Ford 8.8 like I did. Visit https://www.celica-gts.com/forums/

member Corax has built the exact car you want. He rallies that thing too. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

tell me why I shouldn't build an RA64 rally car

No.  No, I will not.

Makela Auto Tuning rebuilt a couple of the Group B cars from scratch.  You could at least see what TTE was thinking when they built it (they basically looked at the Group 4 Escort bible for the chassis, put two cams on a T engine and a K27 from a Porsche (maybe Audi), and went to town)

I'm totally with you on the BEAMS engine.  One of the Detroit rallycross guys has/had that generation Celica (painted with the TTE colors, of course) and he dropped a Tacoma 2.7l in it to replace the 22R, from what he said everything bolted up, even the power steering hoses worked.

(Confession:  I'd probably trade all of my RX-7s and paraphernalia for a notchback, solid axle Celica, at this point)

_ said:

Make sure it’s a GT, not a GTS. The solid axle is weak. Upgrade to a Ford 8.8 like I did. Visit https://www.celica-gts.com/forums/

member Corax has built the exact car you want. He rallies that thing too. 

I wouldn't even bother with anything but a full floater solid axle, to be honest.  Just like Ford did in the 1970s, and everyone else did too.

I have the beefiest mammajama rearend in teh RX-7 but it's still a semifloating axle, and it's amazing how much even the best Timken bearings will allow the axle to knock side to side, judging by how the brake rotors show evidence of grinding on the pad carriers.  Shoulda spent the extra money for a floater.

The Celica is cool, but I vote to start with a Toyota pickup truck

Lof8 said:

The Celica is cool, but I vote to start with a Toyota pickup truck

I looked into this from the rallycross perspective and there is no cheap way to get under the SCCA stability rules with a 2wd non 4x2 truck.  66" height with a 60" track width.

MrChaos said:

Lof8 said:

The Celica is cool, but I vote to start with a Toyota pickup truck

I looked into this from the rallycross perspective and there is no cheap way to get under the SCCA stability rules with a 2wd non 4x2 truck.  66" height with a 60" track width.

Ive been running a Ranger for a few years. (In rallycross). There’s also a dude that stage rallies with one in the US and another guy in Canada I believe. What does 2wd non 4x2 mean?

Lof8 said:

MrChaos said:

Lof8 said:

The Celica is cool, but I vote to start with a Toyota pickup truck

I looked into this from the rallycross perspective and there is no cheap way to get under the SCCA stability rules with a 2wd non 4x2 truck.  66" height with a 60" track width.

What does 2wd non 4x2 mean?

Tacoma's came in both 2wd and 4x2 trims. the regular cab short bed trucks are 4 inches lower than the extended cab/4door trucks. all extended cab trucks and longer are the same height 2wd or 4x4.  Regular cabs can be had as 2wd and 4x4. 65" on rcsb trucks and 70 on the rest.

Also i was mistaken and now will be looking at tacomas since i thought scca was putting th 1:1 height to track width rules into rallycross like they do to autocross. But i was mistaken 

Aahh. I see. You were talking Tacoma specifics. 

In reply to Lof8 :

yea you can also get 2wd prerunner regular cab tacomas that are the same height as the 4wd models.

MrChaos said:

Lof8 said:

MrChaos said:

Lof8 said:

The Celica is cool, but I vote to start with a Toyota pickup truck

I looked into this from the rallycross perspective and there is no cheap way to get under the SCCA stability rules with a 2wd non 4x2 truck.  66" height with a 60" track width.

What does 2wd non 4x2 mean?

Tacoma's came in both 2wd and 4x2 trims. the regular cab short bed trucks are 4 inches lower than the extended cab/4door trucks. all extended cab trucks and longer are the same height 2wd or 4x4.  Regular cabs can be had as 2wd and 4x4. 65" on rcsb trucks and 70 on the rest.

Also i was mistaken and now will be looking at tacomas since i thought scca was putting th 1:1 height to track width rules into rallycross like they do to autocross. But i was mistaken 

it's region-specific. For instance, our region due to a lot of hills and off-camber has somewhat stricter rules with regard to height, as does our neighboring region (for the same reasons). Not saying you wouldn't be fine, but don't take it for granted. I've seen regions allow things like Jeep Grand Wagoneers run. I'm quite certain we would not let one run at our current venue. We do have a Comanche that runs with us, but it's so slow not much rollover risk.

"SCCA" rules are primarily relevant only in national competition, and regional supps can clarify/modify them in many cases, depending on venue. Some regions pretty much let anything go. Others are pretty strict. 

Lof8 said:

MrChaos said:

Lof8 said:

The Celica is cool, but I vote to start with a Toyota pickup truck

I looked into this from the rallycross perspective and there is no cheap way to get under the SCCA stability rules with a 2wd non 4x2 truck.  66" height with a 60" track width.

 

Ive been running a Ranger for a few years. (In rallycross). There’s also a dude that stage rallies with one in the US 

lol, yeah and that dude (gary demasi) pretty much crashes or rolls it at almost every rally haha....

Knurled. said:

 a notchback, solid axle Celica

This seems worth discussing- notchback vs hatchback?

Notch:
-Stiffer
-Lighter
-Looks like the factory cars

Hatch:
-Easier to cage
-More cargo space
-Better access to seats, belts, etc.

I was thinking hatchback.

Does the hatchback version suffer from an Initial D tax?

In reply to Ian F :

No, but that tax is a big part of why we're talking about a Celica and not a Corolla.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Knurled. said:

 a notchback, solid axle Celica

This seems worth discussing- notchback vs hatchback?

Notch:
-Stiffer
-Lighter
-Looks like the factory cars

Hatch:
-Easier to cage
-More cargo space
-Better access to seats, belts, etc.

I was thinking hatchback.

Once caged, not sure if the stiffer part is all that relevant anyhow. The weight difference can't be *that* much I wouldn't imagine - again easy to ignore or make up in other ways. And it only looks like factory cars if you pay for all the cool bits ;)

Personally, the advantages of a hatch are a huge plus-factor, especially if the car is a coupe, in terms of all the factors you list above. If I ever build another rally car, it will definitely be a hatchback or wagon. 

While I see no problems with a BEAMs(except regular, reliable parts sourcing....) a LOT can be done with an RZ, and the extra size should offer much better grunt around the twisties/cones.

As to using a J160, if it fits your needs... by all means.  BUT....  while I've used a J160 in my 4AGE powered Corolla, I'm not sure a J160 will hold up to the rigors of autocross/rally cross, with an engine that makes a lot of torque.

In reply to oldeskewltoy :

There's no "cross" about this, full blown stage rally.  If you think the J160 can't survive a jump or two I'm all ears.

How much power can a not super expensive NA 2/3rz engine make?  How bad (shifter, ratios) are the stock transmissions that come with them?

The thing I like about the beams engine is that I can get 200hp, with a close ratio 6 speed attached, for a little over $1k.  Repeatedly, if necessary- I'd rather have to ability to feed the car stock-ish and available engines than spend $$$ trying to build a "good one" and have to baby it since I'll have too much money tied up to blow it up.  I'm also not opposed to Honda K series engines or something like that if I can get a good trans behind them.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

I like the notch because it looks cooler (duh) and also makes it easier to run a fuel cell if you so desire.

Can these fit a 1UZ or other Toyota V8? Becuase I have been thinking of a similar idea for a future project, too.

As for trans, why not a W58 or other W series?

W58 have crappy ratios.  Not nearly as bad as anything attached to an RZ of course, but nowhere near as good as the 6 speed behind the BEAMS.  IIRC it is more or less a proper motorsports 5 speed (low gear 2:1-ish, top is only technically an overdrive) with a granny low of like 3.6-3.7 that you can safely ignore.

What I find kind of funny is that the same basic transmission was used in the Altezza, the S15-chassis Silvia, the NC Miatas, the RX-8, and probably a bunch of other things, yet only the RX-8 people have had problems with them.

Editation:  Found ratios.  BEAMS trans:

First Gear: 3.874
Second Gear: 2.175
Third Gear: 1.484
Fourth Gear: 1.223
Fifth Gear: 1.000
Sixth Gear: 0.869

W58 trans:

First Gear: 3.285
Second Gear: 1.894
Third Gear: 1.275
Fourth Gear: 1.00
Fifth Gear: 0.783

So effectively, the BEAMS trans has 4 and a sorta gears useful, while the W58 has three, because first is too low and fifth is too high.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

I was going to suggest K series as an alternative to the BEAMS too. As far as transmissions go, I’ve seen guys run K series engines in Miatas, so that might be an option. KMiata also sells kits to adapt the K series to a BMW ZF 5/6 speed transmission. 

I’ve also heard lots of praise for the Nissan CD009.

I don’t really have any info on gear ratios, or how any of those transmissions would hold up in a rally environment though. 

In reply to Turbine :

IIRC there is a rule that the engine must have been sold in the car manufacturer's products, unless that has changed in the past couple years.

So you'd still get weird things possible like 2.3 Fords in RX-7s because the 2.3 was available in the Mazda B2300.  But they didn't want to make illegal, say, Mazda BP-powered Escort GTs.

In reply to Knurled. :

Gotcha. That makes sense! I’ve never looked into rules for actual rallying 

There's a Fiesta powered by Mitsubishi competing in national rallies, so I'm not sure what the engine/chassis rules are, but it certainly warrants looking.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

Can these fit a 1UZ or other Toyota V8? Becuase I have been thinking of a similar idea for a future project, too.

As for trans, why not a W58 or other W series?

There was a member on here that had one that was 1UZ swapped. Or he was in the process of swapping a 1UZ into one. I was never certain. Speaking of which, where has Trackmouse been? I feel like I haven't seen him lately