The Eternal Quest-- yes its a what car thread

Well, sorta Lately I have spending more and more time autocrossing. I am trying to build up my skill set, Unfortinatly I am suffering from a few problems:

1) I am a not a terribly good driver... yet

2) I am competing in STU in my mazdaspeed6--> The car is not terribly competitive, and I have not modded it extensively. (sway bar, adjustable endlinks for camber, and 245 falken Azenis )

My last event I was 6 seconds behind the guy who won my class. In analysing why I am so far behind the leader its hard for me to figure how much is car & setup and how much is due to my driving. I also don't really want to mod my mazdaspeed to the hilt since it is my Daily Driver.

I would also like to compete in a class that would help drive the development of my skills as much as possible (a popular class).

I have been giving a lot of thought to getting a miata and competing in STS2. However there are a few drawbacks that are bugging me:

a)STS2 doesnt allow the torsen differential, and to me, a lot of the point of a rwd car is lost without a good rear LSD

b)The CRX seems like its a faster car in that class (I don't want FWD)

Can anyone present me with some alternatives? Cost and Competitiveness are my two overriding concerns...

How much Time/money/effort is required to set up a miata for csp ? Are spec miatas legal/competive in street mod?

If you are specifically looking for an STS2 car that will improve your driving, I highly recommend the 1st Generation (SA/FB) RX-7. I competed in STS2 all year with a 220K+ mile, all-original one with 195 Azenis as the only mod, and did very well! It's cheap, small, nimble, lightweight, and forces you to drive it (manual steering, stick rear axle). Even completely stock the GSL model (what mine is) comes with 4-wheel discs and a really nice suspension. There's a ton of room to grow and the factory LSD is legal as it's clutch-type! You're a little far away from me, but if you find yourself in the Portland area I will gladly let you try my car out.

Thanks for the offer, I had thought about RX-7s too, I just didn't think the clutch type LSD was legal... I have seen some 1st gen RX7s for sale that were set up for CSP? I think...

They were pretty cheap too. Though I do hear conflicting things on how competitive they are, I wonder what their perceived drawback is?

I am not specifically looking at STS2... It just seems like its at a bit of a sweet spot with a limited number of mods allowed to keep cost down and lots of competition...

Miatas seem to do well in stock class. Only mods there are a front swaybar, tires, catback and shocks.

The perceived drawback is that their old. For some reason (especially in stock classes) autocrossers can't wrap their heads around old cars. If it's not new, it's going to lose.

I'd hunt for a 81-85 GSL like mine or even better a 84-85 GSL-SE with the 135HP 13B and revised suspension and common bolt pattern. With the STS2 legal mods (tires, brakes, full exhaust, CAI, sway bars, shocks, springs) it's nearly IT level equipped. A stock port, well-tuned, modded 13B can put out ~195BHP and an FB weighs from ~1950-2350Lbs depending on trim. So you're looking at roughly Lotus Elise power/weight.

Forget about winning ribbons and beer mugs. Build a car that you like, run in whatever class they put you in and go out and have a good time.

FWIW, I'd stick with what you've got for a full season. Attend EVERY autox in your region, ESPECIALLY any schools that are available to you. Offer up your car to the competitive guys, and maybe some of the competitive guys will do the same for you. You'll be shocked at the results!

Don't get in a big hurry to spend a whole lot of money on the "hot car," only to find out that it doesn't make you any better of a driver (ask me how I know ) Even folks in STOCK classes spend thousands of bucks and even more hours developing nationally competitive cars.

My last event I was 6 seconds behind the guy who won my class. In analysing why I am so far behind the leader its hard for me to figure how much is car & setup and how much is due to my driving.

One way to find out! Get a competitive driver in the seat before giving up on her.

They do have a point, concentrate on the nut behind the wheel. I autocrossed for months on god-awful Toyo Spectrums until I could outdrive them, then I stepped up to the Azenis. I'm finally able to work them to full capacity so only now almost a year and 15-odd events later am I even considering any mods. Drive drive drive!

poopshovel wrote: FWIW, I'd stick with what you've got for a full season. Attend EVERY autox in your region, ESPECIALLY any schools that are available to you. Offer up your car to the competitive guys, and maybe some of the competitive guys will do the same for you. You'll be shocked at the results! Don't get in a big hurry to spend a whole lot of money on the "hot car," only to find out that it doesn't make you any better of a driver (ask me how I know ) Even folks in STOCK classes spend thousands of bucks and even more hours developing nationally competitive cars.

My last event I was 6 seconds behind the guy who won my class. In analysing why I am so far behind the leader its hard for me to figure how much is car & setup and how much is due to my driving.

One way to find out! Get a competitive driver in the seat before giving up on her.

Great advice. Drive, learn and get experience.

I'm willing to bet that just working on your driving techniques alone is worth an easy 3 seconds. I'm willing to bet the driver that won your class has been doing this for quite a while and knows the limits of his car well. I spend too much time in spec race cars and have learned just a twitch of the steering wheel here and a brush of the brake pedal there can all add up to big losses on a stopwatch. For your admitted lack of driving prowess, a six second gap to the leader can disappear quickly with just some practice time. One nice set of sticky tires can help make life easier also.

I think FSP would be a fun class. Staying in stock class is good to learn to drive well though. The only thing with stock class is its a pretty much only new car class. If you were willing to get a fwd (which i dont see why not, I drive a rwd car, but id still prefer fwd for autocross) a Neon ACR would be plenty of fun in GS, and be decent in FSP once you modified it a bit. Unless something has changed, an RX7 has a limited future in anything other than CSP unless they have changed the stock cat rule since I last checked. You cant get the stock cats anymore i dont think, and even if you still could i think they were close to $3k. If you get one with good cats its fine, but if one fails its not going to be ST legal anymore, and all the money you spent building it is wasted.

I have to agree that upgrading the nut behind the wheel is the single best thing I can be doing. I have been autocrossing for about 2 years, but as a "club slut" essentially jumping between clubs and running events as are convenient for my schedule (averaging 1 event per month).

I would like to push my driving to the next level (now averaging 3 events per month). To do this I am thinking the way to go is to settle down in one club, in one class and run against the same people so I can benchmark my performance.

As much as possible I would like to take the car and its setup out of the equation. Which means running in a class that is essentially stock or only allows light mods.

I tend to shy away from the Stock classes since most of those seem to need fairly new (expensive) cars. Which is once again why one of the Street Touring classes seem to be at a sweet spot.

I do like driving my speed6 in STU, every time I beat some punk kid in an evo with too many stickers, I smile because I know it was not the car and that the kid didn't see it coming.

However there are some handling traits that annoy me, I could probably fix some of them by further tweaking my alignment, and doing some more suspension mods, but this car is also my daily driver and the more I tweak it the less livable it will become on a daily basis. Furthermore I would like to be able to attend an HDPE or a drift event, and I will not take a car to that I cannot afford to ball up.

Thanks for all the good input so far! keep it coming.

One of the best things you can do is to get into a good co-drive situation. Since your car isn't ideal for the class, and you don't really know what you want, see if any of the local guys are looking for co-drivers in any cars that interest you. You can often get a season long ride in a well prepped car for as little as bringing tires to the table.

Some of the info here (particularly about the rx7) had me interested so I got off my lazy butt and checked out the rule book. Regarding the Catylitic converter in STS:

The Bible Says: E. Catalytic converters may be replaced by aftermarket units. Re- placements must: 1) Be certified for use in that vehicle application by the manufac- turer or reconditioner, 2) Bear correct EPA-mandated labeling, 3) Be of the OE quantity and type (i.e. oxidation, three-way, etc.) and 4) Be used in the same location(s) as the OE converter(s). This does allow for high performance replacements, provided they meet all restrictions herein.

Now for the LSD:

The Bible Says: Further, as in STS, only original equipment viscous limited-slip differentials are legal in STS2.

So I don't think the Clutch type diff is technically legal in STS2

DILYSI Dave, I like the way you think. That is an interesting idea.

Isn't a clutch-type LSD "viscous"?

I thought the definition of viscous was clutches in a fluid...

Anyways, the SCCA rulebbok clearly mentions the non-turbo RX-7 as for the STS2 class, and all GSL, GSL-SE, GXL, GTU, and GTUs models came with clutch LSD's, soooo...

http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo%20Rules/StreetTouringCategoryClassificationsbyManufacturer.pdf

"Examples of Eligible Automobiles:

Mazda RX-7 (1979-92) (non-turbo engine) STS2"

http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo%20Rules/2008_Solo_Rules_2.pdf

"14.11 STS2 STS2 follows the STS rule set, but the eligible cars will be restricted to two-seaters with engine displacements of 1.9 liters or less. This class includes a number of popular vehicles, including the Honda CRX and del Sol, Mazda Rx-7 (non-turbo, ‘79-’92)"

And just to re-iterate on the cats:

"E. Catalytic converters may be replaced by aftermarket units. Replacements must: 1) Be certified for use in that vehicle application by the manufacturer or reconditioner, 2) Bear correct EPA-mandated labeling, 3) Be of the OE quantity and type (i.e. oxidation, three-way, etc.) and 4) Be used in the same location(s) as the OE converter(s). This does allow for high performance replacements, provided they meet all restrictions herein."

P71 wrote: Anyways, the SCCA rulebbok clearly mentions the non-turbo RX-7 as for the STS2 class, and all GSL, GSL-SE, GXL, GTU, and GTUs models came with clutch LSD's, soooo...

Could any of the non-turbo RX-7s be had without the LSD?

IIRC only the drum-brake equipped SA and FB models. So the fact that they say the FC series at all (86-92) pretty much washes it. Again though, I'm 99% certain a clutch LSD is viscous. I've seen the LSD RX-7's in STS2 in the Nationals coverage.

Good, im glad they changed it, its more in the sprit of the class now IMO.

A viscous LSD is not the same as a clutch-type LSD. A viscous LSD uses the expansion of fluid to control wheelspin. Clutch type LSDs use umm...clutches. Look for an in-depth analysis (including track testing of three different LSD's) in the February 09 issue of GRM.

Item 14.11 in the National rule book (quoted in Capt. Slow's comment above) mentions the only LSD's allowed are viscous type. This rule is the reason my 1994 Miata wasn't legal for STS2. (Although in that list of eligible cars it may appear to be.) I kinda hate this rule, but that's the way it reads, and it hasn't been changed yet.

Capt. Slow- I can very much relate to your situation. Not that I'm fast yet, but for me, the best answer was to seek specialized autocross training with the Evolution school. Good people, good instruction, lots of fun. I was shocked at how much improvement it made for me in a single weekend. If you're lucky (and polite) enough to find a good co-drive situation with a fast driver, it may provide much of the same benefit.

I think I may have conned some one into co-driving with me today .

I am liking where this thread is going though I think it is straying from its original topic a bit, I think I will start a new thread...

P71 wrote: IIRC only the drum-brake equipped SA and FB models. So the fact that they say the FC series at all (86-92) pretty much washes it. Again though, I'm 99% certain a clutch LSD *is* viscous. I've seen the LSD RX-7's in STS2 in the Nationals coverage.

Most N/A FC's don't have the limited slip. Especially S5s.

As confirmed, clutch-type LSD's aren't viscous.

Hmmm, guess a whole lot of them raced when the SCCA wasn't looking then. I don't really care considering I run the "Non Porsche" class

Forget this crazy anti-FWD bias. If you want to learn how to autocross, and old Civic or Integra is your best bet by far if you want to whoop some butt. If you must have RWD, then you simply can't beat a Miata. The limited-slip thing is the last thing to worry about. FWIW, guys and gals in Stock Miatas have been beating my butt for a long time. (both in a slightly modded, mid-engine, RWD MR2 and a highly modded Civic) Swap the sway bars, add some R-compound rubber, and you will be FLYING!