In reply to Nick (Not-Stig) Comstock: I play with carbs all the time.. (in part because I have to) On my hobby cars. Modern Fuel injection doesn't need any attention..
In reply to Nick (Not-Stig) Comstock: I play with carbs all the time.. (in part because I have to) On my hobby cars. Modern Fuel injection doesn't need any attention..
Nick (Not-Stig) Comstock wrote: In reply to Chris_V: I still cry about the vanishing of carburetors and the advent of ECU's. I was born in the wrong time period.
Whereas some of us love it. Since careers are made around computer controlled engines.
Nick (Not-Stig) Comstock wrote: In reply to Chris_V: I still cry about the vanishing of carburetors and the advent of ECU's. I was born in the wrong time period.
Whereas as I came of age during the transition period when carburetors were loathsome, complicated devices and the switch to EFI brought great simplification and reliability. I want EFI on all of my carbureted cars...
frenchyd wrote: In reply to CGLockRacer: Nobody will take your right away anymore than they've taken your right to ride a horse.. But you will choose to give it up for the same reason people gave up their horses.. Yes some still ride horses, on weekends for a hobby.. A few, not everybody.. You will have choices but you'll choose what is best for you.
You can still ride a horse on the road or use them to pull a buggy on the road. Plenty of people around were I am from still do. I see no reason you won't be able to continue using self driven cars on the road.
In reply to Ian F: In reply to alfadriver :
I'm not saying that efi is not a million times better than a carb in every aspect. I just prefer carbs, that's all.
In reply to SVreX:
The only penalty we get for living in rural areas is that we're the last to see any effect of the significant portion of taxes we pay when it comes to road maintence/snow removal.
Its a worthy trade off for being better suited for existence than urbanites. 
WOW Really Paul? wrote: In reply to SVreX: The only penalty we get for living in rural areas is that we're the last to see any effect of the significant portion of taxes we pay when it comes to road maintence/snow removal. Its a worthy trade off for being better suited for existence than urbanites.
Some of us urban dwellers came from farms and choose to move into the city for the greater opportunities and more choices it affords us.. That does not mean we forgot how to exist when we crossed the city lines.
Also most rural counties need urban assistance in paying taxes. At least in Minnesota. I'm relatively certain most states have some sort of revenue sharing mechanism since rural areas tend to have higher rates of poverty per capita. (Yes I know about the few farmers who have paid off their loans and yet earn millions of dollars per year from sale of their crops)..
So I got to see a facility for a lot of this research today. http://mtc.umich.edu/partners/industry
If you are interested, all of the private companies who are partners with Michigan are hiring to develop this future that so many of you are so fearful of.
Come join the party.
I'm not kidding. Great career opportunities, and even a ton of space for start ups.
Come put your expertise to work.
In reply to alfadriver: What I see as a great aspect of computer controlled cars is the lack of stop signs in Urban areas.. The computer will batch cars and whistle them through intersections without stopping. Sort of like they do in figure 8 racing where the drivers try to judge arrival time at the intersection so they don't have to stop or even brake..
That way all those blasts of pollution from starting cars?Trucks and accelerating them up to the 40-45 MPH they are most efficient at and produce the least pollution after sitting there idling until the light turn green will go away..
In reply to frenchyd:
I've thought about that as well. Sort of how many of us will try to watch/judge lights so we can not come to a complete stop for a red light. Which for some reason, really irks drivers behind me...
...that said, if this were done in cities, you'd almost want cars without windows... as cars zooming through intersections with minimal space would be scary as hell to be in...
frenchyd wrote: In reply to alfadriver: What I see as a great aspect of computer controlled cars is the lack of stop signs in Urban areas.. The computer will batch cars and whistle them through intersections without stopping. Sort of like they do in figure 8 racing where the drivers try to judge arrival time at the intersection so they don't have to stop or even brake.. That way all those blasts of pollution from starting cars?Trucks and accelerating them up to the 40-45 MPH they are most efficient at and produce the least pollution after sitting there idling until the light turn green will go away..
I did bring that up during the tour yesterday- and while they do admit that is one of the targets- it's #3. Mostly because selling the safety thing is easier (and I can't recall #2 right now).
No question that someone who has that kind of thinking has room to work on the solution.
Bad news for guys who install stop signs. 
Joe Gearin wrote: I don't have a huge problem with it as long as I'm not forced to allow a computer to do my driving. The day I'm no longer allowed to drive is the day I leave the U.S.
This sums up my feelings on the subject.
I love the driving part of driving. It doesn't matter the situation. I don't currently, or have I ever, lived in a place that has bad traffic issues. I've never lived in a place that has HOV lanes, never even heard of the concept until I drove through Atlanta. An automated car would have no place in my life, It has no advantage at all for me. And if they are mandated through legislation, it would take away the thing I live for doing. Which is hoping on the bike, or getting in an exciting car, and picking a road and just driving. Seriously it's my favorite thing in the world. The day I am no longer allowed to do that is the day I no longer am an American.
Joe Gearin wrote: Automated cars are coming--- just ask any of the CEO's of the big automakers. There will be bumps in the road, and fatalities, but as long as the industry and govt. support the idea, it will continue on. It will have positive and negative effects, like most things. It will not solve our traffic problems, it will just allow you to do something else while stuck in traffic. Every day there are more people, more cars, and more congestion. To think that automation will magically solve our traffic grid-lock problems is incorrect IMHO. When they add more lanes to highways does it reduce congestion? Nope---it just slows the problem from getting worse. I see the same with automation. I don't have a huge problem with it as long as I'm not forced to allow a computer to do my driving. The day I'm no longer allowed to drive is the day I leave the U.S.
I believe that self drive cars will help solve our traffic congestion or at least minimize it.. The problem now is human reaction times and attention. If taken over by computer those distances can be dramatically reduced.. In addition current speed limits are based on the skill level of the average motorist, not highly skilled and nearly perfect race drivers skill level.
Take those out of the hand of the driver and speed and car spacing requirements will result in far higher allowable traffic density.
We can also control traffic density by computer, Timing where and when additional traffic is allowed to a far better degree than the stop lights on freeway on ramps currently does.. (not to mention ending the stupid driver who creeps up the on ramp and stops waiting for someone to let him in)
Nick (Not-Stig) Comstock wrote:Joe Gearin wrote: I don't have a huge problem with it as long as I'm not forced to allow a computer to do my driving. The day I'm no longer allowed to drive is the day I leave the U.S.This sums up my feelings on the subject. I love the driving part of driving. It doesn't matter the situation. I don't currently, or have I ever, lived in a place that has bad traffic issues. I've never lived in a place that has HOV lanes, never even heard of the concept until I drove through Atlanta. An automated car would have no place in my life, It has no advantage at all for me. And if they are mandated through legislation, it would take away the thing I live for doing. Which is hoping on the bike, or getting in an exciting car, and picking a road and just driving. Seriously it's my favorite thing in the world. The day I am no longer allowed to do that is the day I no longer am an American.
Most Rural areas should be the last places to get self drive cars.. However it's a matter of political will not technology. Moderns airliners are all flown by computers that do the take off and landing with no input from the pilot. If 400+MPH airlines can be computer controlled 100+ mph cars working in one dimension are a piece of cake..
For old fogies like us who actually enjoy driving we will slowly be forced to move to less densely populated areas like old people have done since my grandparents age.. Grandma who never drove a car in her life used to sit right next to 3/4 blind Grandpa and tell him which way to steer and when to stop. I was asked to disable his old Chevy when the combination of his near blindness and stroke made it too risky for Grandma.
The ironic part is self drive means old fogies will now be able to still get around as long as we can figure out how to get out to the car!
Joe Gearin wrote: As much as the tech-geeks want automated cars to completely take over--- it isn't feasible without designated driving lanes. Humans make errors that computers can't be programed for. Humans can also be angry, vindictive, and crash into you on purpose. Automated cars will not be able to accurately predict this sort of human behavior.
They don't have to predict that behavior, just react to it, and computers are very good at reacting to things very quickly.
GameboyRMH wrote:Joe Gearin wrote: As much as the tech-geeks want automated cars to completely take over--- it isn't feasible without designated driving lanes. Humans make errors that computers can't be programed for. Humans can also be angry, vindictive, and crash into you on purpose. Automated cars will not be able to accurately predict this sort of human behavior.They don't have to predict that behavior, just react to it, and computers are very good at reacting to things very quickly.
Yeah, Gameboy nailed this one.
Even humans don't predict weird behavior of other humans. The only thing they do is react when someone does something dumb, and computers are vastly better at reacting than their human counterparts.
^^^ I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. While driving I am constantly predicting what the vehicles around me will do. If I see a car acting erratically, I give them room. If I see the glow of a phone in the driver's face--- I predict they will wander out of their lane....which they almost always do. If they are driving aggressively, I expect them to try and pass me on the right---- and block themselves in.....because they neglected to see the other car in front of them. (most drivers only seem to be able to see 5ft in front of their cars) I am constantly looking, predicting, and planing my escape routes if things do go wrong. This is especially true on a motorcycle.
Computers will be able to learn driver "tells" so they can predict erratic human behavior, but it won't be foolproof. Even a magical computer isn't going to be able to avoid an accident if a homicidal human decides he'd like to T-Bone an automated car. Of course, this is a total rarity, but lets not put on rose-colored glasses, and think everything will be seamless.
I predict autonomous driving will begin with HOV-like restricted lanes, which will eventually become nearly all lanes. Then, over a few years, they will remove the human-driven lanes, and go full-autonomous. Your "recreational" driving will be restricted. Driving a car by yourself will be a societal taboo, as you are endangering others, polluting the environment, and killing all those bugs on your windshield. (think of the poor children.....and those innocent bugs!)
We are becoming much more risk adverse as a society. Eliminating human-driven cars is just one more step in creating a perfectly "safe" cocoon-like world. Only troglodytes and the dim witted would argue otherwise! 
In reply to Joe Gearin:
You are not predicting erratic human behavior. You are TRYING to predict it.
There is nothing you have just written that can't be done by a computer. All the same tells and concerns you look for can be looked for by a computer, and it will also have the ability of communicating with other vehicles. The erratic driver you see coming up in your rear view could have been identified 5 miles before you were ever able to see it by another vehicle, tagged by license plate ID, and forewarned ahead to hundreds of other vehicles that there is an impending problem.
If a homicidal human decided to T-bone a vehicle, a computer driven vehicle will have AT LEAST equal odds to a human driven one, and more likely much better.
It doesn't matter if it's foolproof. It matters if it is better than its human counterpart. It is.
Erratic behavior by definition is unpredictable.
^^ I hope you enjoy your brave new world. (honestly....I wish you all well)
I'll be in Costa Rica, or somewhere suitably "undeveloped" where I can drive myself until my days are over. I already have too much electronic interaction in my life---- I'm looking for less, not more.
In reply to Joe Gearin:
I'm sure there was once a time when people said that about riding the horses they loved.
Never said I wanted it. Just said I am expecting it, and doing the best I can to survive it.
Ian F wrote: In reply to frenchyd: ...that said, if this were done in cities, you'd almost want cars without windows... as cars zooming through intersections with minimal space would be scary as hell to be in...
You have obviously not driven in India
Those guys drive like they believe in re-incarnation.
In reply to NOHOME:
Nope, and I have no plans to do so. And if dash-cam footage is anything to go by, Russia seems to be about the same, only with more expensive cars.
SVreX wrote: There is nothing you have just written that can't be done by a computer. All the same tells and concerns you look for can be looked for by a computer
In addition to this, a computer can monitor any number of cameras. The best human driver in the world needs to look ahead at stuff, moving focus from object to object. Peripheral vision helps us keep some stuff semi-in focus, but our eyes still move from the pedestrian on the sidewalk, to the car in front of us, the car in front of that, rear view mirror, side mirror, other side mirror, etc. You can try and predict what each person/car is about to do, but the minute you look away to another object, your data is now obsolete.
A computer can look at all of this stuff with 100% focus, simultaneously. And never get tired. Or distracted. Its prepared to react to anything at any moment.
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