the sweet spot for fun and performance w/o the machine providing all of the thunder and capabilities

I feel like I bring up a similar topic every few months or so, but having the ND in my life has highlighted it again. I've been fortune enough to sit behind the wheel of a laundry list of "dream cars" over the years and been lucky enough to drive quite a few of them in anger on track. I've come to realize that the most fun to drive cars run 0-60 in the 5-6 second range, run the quarter mile in 13-14.5 sec and wear tires narrower then 225 and sport a proper manual transmission. Weight obviously plays a role as well.

it provides enough performance to be engaging and involve the driver, while still allowing the driver to soak in the experience, while also not providing so much power or mechanical grip to hide any mistakes or sins that the driver commits. It's a balance that creates a more visceral driving experience then most. Examples are some models known as being remarkable driver's cars are below.

ND miata 964 integra R Fiesta ST mini cooper s FC turbo II the frisbee twins are just outside the 0-60 range when stock. the e36 M3 and 135I as well as 987 Cayman fall out of the perimeters due to rear tire size 240z cars, 510s, AW11s, and 2002s are a bit slower then the parameters

As a bonus operating cost and consumables on such cars are generally cheap, they don't use a lot of tire, won't need a ton of braking, meaning that their owners really get to enjoy them, without penalty, more often. This target range of performance appears to create a responsive fun to drive car, that won't be a fastest thing on the road, as a current V6 camry falls into the speed range, though obviously without a manual transmission, wearing 225 tires and weighing in at north of 3400 lbs. But that serves as proof that the formula for fun to drive, doesn't lie in straight line speed.

I've always said 2400lbs. 200hp. Stick. And 195/50/15's. Can't. Go. Wrong.

Oh, and your wrong about the 240z,510,etc. the reason you buy those cars is to put in a 200hp build and have a fun car. You can't do that with an Audi, newer bmw, Porsche, Merc, Saab, American anything, anything new British.

Wrong...Corvette is better in every way

In reply to Trackmouse:

I didn't go down the rabbit hole of taking the slower cars that otherwise fit the formula and making them faster, but yes, that's absolutely a way to go to make a very fun car.

Trackmouse wrote: I've always said 2400lbs. 200hp. Stick. And 195/50/15's. Can't. Go. Wrong.

my ride gets pretty close to that.... 2200#s and 170 hp

Trackmouse,

You just described my last miata and you are right.....It was a blast.

<-- How about 2600 lbs, 223 HP, 5-speed, and 205/50/16's ? Could be lighter if I took out the spare, etc.

An RX8 is on the line of all of those but still on the outside looking in, would have to say the sweet spot for what you would want would have to be an elise or a baser caterham.

The thing is it has to be about 200hp AND torque. Cause you can make 200hp with a b16a. But it'll have 140tq... And that, while still fun to drive, is sad.

And of course the weight and power can fudge A LITTLE. But not much! 2600lbs and 250hp ok. 3000 lbs and 300hp, pig. North of 2500lbs is where it goes to crap. North of 250hp/tq is where is goes to crap. Massive tires over 215's, well... Arent crap, but take the fun out.

And we don't need to venture into the land autoz. That's a given that this forum understands.