Trucks: Full-Size vs Mid-Size

My only point in this conversation is that we can't pretend that other people's driving habits and a vehicle choices DO affect us and we totally have a right to judge their choice based on the environment that we're in.

penultimeta wrote: My only point in this conversation is that we can't pretend that other people's driving habits and a vehicle choices DO affect us and we totally have a right to judge their choice based on the environment that we're in.

Is there a typo in that post, or is my reading comprehension lacking today?

It seems to contradict the posters previous statement.

I'm guessing he left off the "N'T" but either way, we needs facts in order to come to any type of conclusion. ESPECIALLY if you intend to judge other people on their personal decisions.

If you are just assuming these people treat their trucks like cars or anything else, we can't go any farther as those are assumptions on your part.

That is unless you know this group of people that told you how they operate their vehicles.

And I suppose my next question is where EXACTLY does one draw the line? Is someone's decision to drive a longbed half-ton not ok but the short-bed is?

One guy drives a Yukon and I drive a Yukon XL... I'm making poor choices and the other guy isn't? Or is his decision 20% better than mine all things being equal?

What if you drive a Camry-sized car and I drive a Fiat 500? Can I judge you on your wrong choice?

I'm sure there are scooter drivers bemoaning those huge hybrids whizzing by endangering his life. And the pedestrian? He's better than everyone. Too bad he's so likely to get hit and killed by the guy on the scooter.

My point is judging me by my Yukon Denali XL ($3,500) by watching me driving alone is silly. You don't know how big my family is and that I use that extra space quie often. You'd never know that. I've also daily driven a '73 Beetle and three Suzuki Samurais. Now I drive something three times larger. I can handle it. How do you know everyone else can't?

penultimeta wrote: My only point in this conversation is that we can't pretend that other people's driving habits and a vehicle choices DO affect us and we totally have a right to judge their choice based on the environment that we're in.

Driving habits, yes. Idiots behind the wheel probably cost me 10-20 minutes a day. Unfixable, and frankly not worth the skull sweat to worry about.

Car choices, not so much. The effect would be negligible and in most cases acceptable.

The right to judge? I 100% disagree. To assume that your choices are the only ones that are correct, is arrogance. You don't have to agree with them, but to judge them is to assume you know everything about them, their situation, and their values. And to assume your values are worth more. There is a saying about Assume.

My truck ownership history goes like this: F150 2WD > Ranger 2WD > F250 4WD > Ranger 4WD > F150 2WD. At the time I had them each one fit my needs. As my needs changed I got a truck that fit those needs. Other peoples opinions (including SWMBO) were irrelevant to me.

FYI: I now drive a 2105 Subaru Outback which fits my current needs just fine.

To be chartible when people's choices are harming public safety and the environment isn't kind, it's dangerous. Deductive reasoning based on objective moral principles isn't arrogance. Most people on here would agree with the "right tool for the right job". That's what attracted me to this forum in the first place. A daily driven f250 in Washington DC is certainly the wrong tool as much as a Miata hauling 2x4s is.

In reply to penultimeta:

I don't know about that - I used to drive a big box truck around the city all alone, all day long. Everyday. Stop and Go. Stop and go. Not just commuting either - I drove it for 10-12hrs thru neighborhoods and on highways, down driveways... behind factories. I would have loved a Miata but it just wouldn't have been the right tool for the job.

Huckleberry wrote: In reply to penultimeta: I don't know about that - I used to drive a big box truck around the city all alone, all day long. Everyday. Stop and Go. Stop and go. Not just commuting either - I drove it for 10-12hrs thru neighborhoods and on highways, down driveways... behind factories. I would have loved a Miata but it just wouldn't have been the right tool for the job.

I think this mostly proves my point.

I think the point is that YOU don't know why that guy is driving an F-250 to work in DC any more than you know why that guy has 2x4's on his Miata.
Even the thought process that leads you to say "well, maybe he has a good reason but not all of them do" is wrong. If you want to lobby to increase gas taxes or weight based taxes to punish those drivers, go for it.

penultimeta wrote: To be chartible when people's choices are harming public safety and the environment isn't kind, it's dangerous. Deductive reasoning based on objective moral principles isn't arrogance. Most people on here would agree with the "right tool for the right job". That's what attracted me to this forum in the first place. A daily driven f250 in Washington DC is certainly the wrong tool as much as a Miata hauling 2x4s is.

Nice bit of trolling. I'll bite:

Why are you qualified to be the person who opinion constitutes the "objective moral principle", and not the guy driving the F250 in Washington DC? Keep in mind that guy may only drive a short distance on his daily commute, so the difference between the pollution from his F250 and a morally responsible vehicle may be negligible.

If not you, whose morals should we be using as the objective standard? How was it decided that their perspective provided the proper moral perspective?

So it's better for the public if I have multiple vehicles specific to the activities/tasks that I need to use a vehicle for?

Or does a single vehicle that can accomplish all tasks, even if not the most efficient at some of the tasks, create less pollution?

Make sure you take into account all sources of pollution: operation, maintenance, production, and disposal.

In reply to penultimeta:

"There's no place in DD'ing a car with poor mileage"

Really? You meant to type that?

You're going to tell my friend there's no room for DD'ing his '69 Dart? You believe you have that moral high-ground?

"Also, people who buy these large vehicles are not prepared for the size of them. They treat them like a car and don't realize they have a larger turning radius and more mass"

Where's your evidence that proves this? You have and will never have any evidence about what's in people's heads. And where there is no evidence, you must admit you're giving a biased view based on emotion not facts.

And like a said earlier: you're the one in charge of your opinion so in your opinion, where's the mileage cut-off exactly and what length, width and height is a vehicle safe and allows you to park? Which cars and trucks will be allowed in your neighborhood and which are too dangerous?

Is it 25mpg? Maybe 28mpg? If it's 24mpg what will you do with my vehicle that gets 20mpg, outlaw it? Confiscate and crush it?

You seem convinced that your right so I'm gonna need some hard numbers of what's allowable. Without it, this conversation is going nowhere (I think that may have already occurred).

Or is it the drivers? Which drivers can you tell me will drive their truck like a car? I'll be damned if I can tell.

If you can't drive your truck like a car, you should drive your car like a truck, which brings us back to Utes which I believe would solve this whole argument.

penultimeta wrote: A daily driven f250 in Washington DC is certainly the wrong tool as much as a Miata hauling 2x4s is.

Um.. A convertible is fantastic for hauling lumber though. Seriously, short of plywood, I've loaded my Miatas, yes both of them, with all manner of lumber, even a door once. Even plywood could be carried, if I took my measurements to Home Depot and made them cut it there. I'll grant that driving a hollow door 50 miles on a miata passenger seat was far from the SAFEST thing to do, but it was the most capable vehicle available without renting a truck from HD for one door.

2x4's, 2x12's even a few 4x4 posts from time to time. No problem at all. Funny looks were given sure, but it was just as easy, if not easier, than loading the same load into my old Sonoma. Seatbelt helped a lot vs the old nowhere to run ratchet strap beds of the 90s.

I'm actually a little upset the Vics backseat doesn't fold down. Sure the trunk is big enough for 5 bodies before introducing a sawzall, but lumber, conduit, plumbing pipe don't stand a chance. The miata will carry enough to fill the passenger footwell, which is usually more than I ever need at one time anyway.

If driving a full size truck in traffic seems anymore difficult that driving a car perhaps you should do everyone else on the road a favor and get a bus pass. That will let you enjoy the additional moral high grounds of less emissions and lower fuel usage as you look down at all the people whose vehicles that are bigger than they need to be or have more horsepower than is necessary or cornering capabilities they don't use but once in a while.

mazdeuce wrote: If you can't drive your truck like a car, you should drive your car like a truck, which brings us back to Utes which I believe would solve this whole argument.

Every time someone mentions utes two things happen.

I want one.

I hear that scene from My Cousin Vinny.

If you get one, and I get one, then we would have two Utes.

We do pretty well in Australia without full sized trucks...

Doesn't make full sizes right or wrong. Just means that you can get by without them

As for utes, I have a feeling we'll loose utes here in the not to distant future. Can't see gm and Ford continuing to make them once Ford and Holden shut up shop on aussie manufacturing

Looks like Huckleberry's premonition is holding true.

To add to my 1st post, trucks I've owned. 81 K5 Blazer, 95 F150 XLT Extended Cab then did some time without a truck. Now have a 16 Tacoma Extended Cab. Personally, an older El Camino (Ute) would suit my purposes well and in the past usually bought 2 year old used trucks. Let someone else work the bugs out and eat depreciation. SWMBO insisted I buy new this time so I went with the Taco because it suits my purposes, has some nice features, easier to drive and park than a full-size and less expensive than any others I looked at. And that included the Colorado. Wanted extended cab for extra cab space for semi-secure storage but didn't need/want full crew cab. Plus I wanted the longer bed that doesn't come with crew cabs.

RevRico wrote:

penultimeta wrote: A daily driven f250 in Washington DC is certainly the wrong tool as much as a Miata hauling 2x4s is.

Um.. A convertible is fantastic for hauling lumber though. Seriously, short of plywood, I've loaded my Miatas, yes both of them, with all manner of lumber, even a door once. Even plywood *could* be carried, if I took my measurements to Home Depot and made them cut it there. I'll grant that driving a hollow door 50 miles on a miata passenger seat was far from the SAFEST thing to do, but it was the most capable vehicle available without renting a truck from HD for one door. 2x4's, 2x12's even a few 4x4 posts from time to time. No problem at all. Funny looks were given sure, but it was just as easy, if not easier, than loading the same load into my old Sonoma. Seatbelt helped a lot vs the old nowhere to run ratchet strap beds of the 90s. I'm actually a little upset the Vics backseat doesn't fold down. Sure the trunk is big enough for 5 bodies before introducing a sawzall, but lumber, conduit, plumbing pipe don't stand a chance. The miata will carry enough to fill the passenger footwell, which is usually more than I ever need at one time anyway.

a rollbar makes full sheets of plywood possible.

penultimeta wrote: My only point in this conversation is that we can't pretend that other people's driving habits and a vehicle choices DO affect us and we totally have a right to judge their choice based on the environment that we're in.

I don't have enough time or energy to get mad about every single person that makes a decision I don't agree with. But since you like judging people for inappropriate vehicle usage. My only running vehicle at the moment is a 1989 Dodge D350. My truck usage would be much better suited to a 2wd Tacoma, but selling this truck wouldn't pay for a Tacoma less than 15 years old, So I'll deal with the excess I already paid for. Most of the week you can find my piloting my empty dually to class or work. No I can't really justify owning this thing, but I've become rather fond of it and I honestly don't believe I'm hurting anyone but myself with it.

A smaller less heinous vehicle is in the works, but I'm terrible at getting things done even after I spend unreasonable amounts of money on parts. Pretty sure the smaller vehicle will get worse fuel economy than my big truck, so there really is no winning I guess.

I have both the 2011 Silverado 2500HD that I spent 6 months looking for and the 2003 F350 I inherited two months later and one of them is going to be gone soon. Both pull trailers great and are unstoppable in the snow, but they both stink the rest of the time.

My next truck is going to be either a Ram Promaster or Ford Transit cab chassis with a 10-12' flat bed on it. The only compromise is snow driving, and having a 12' bed (that an Opel could fit on directly) at a usable height would more than make up for it.

daeman wrote: We do pretty well in Australia without full sized trucks... Doesn't make full sizes right or wrong. Just means that you can get by without them

Last time I was in Oz, I remember trying to imagine how I would tow a two-car enclosed trailer with what I saw on the roads. There was nothing between a Toyota truck (with a cool folding side flatbed design) and a semi. The way I use my truck simply wasn't represented. So how IS is done in Australia? How would you get two cars and tools and spares from Sydney to Brisbane? It's an honest question, I'm curious.

As for people not being able to handle the size of their vehicles - I know exactly how much my truck weighs and what it's capabilities are. It's the smaller cars around me that seem to want to encroach on my space for braking or who like to camp out beside my trailer on the interstate. Since we're generalizing

Keith Tanner wrote:

daeman wrote: We do pretty well in Australia without full sized trucks... Doesn't make full sizes right or wrong. Just means that you can get by without them

Last time I was in Oz, I remember trying to imagine how I would tow a two-car enclosed trailer with what I saw on the roads. There was nothing between a Toyota truck (with a cool folding side flatbed design) and a semi. The way I use my truck simply wasn't represented. So how IS is done in Australia? How would you get two cars and tools and spares from Sydney to Brisbane? It's an honest question, I'm curious.

You're probably in light or medium rigid truck territory there. Something like a hino, mitsi fuso, or UD amongst others. A Pantec truck or similar with a workshop set up in the box on the back and the 2 car enclosed trailer towed behind.
But to be fair, your talking some pretty sprecialised needs there, not your average Joe, run of the mill contractor or average weekend racer.

That said, there are plenty of Motorsports guys here who go to the big American trucks if they can afford them. As much for image as for capabilities

mazdeuce wrote: If you get one, and I get one, then we would have two Utes.

LOL

Keith Tanner wrote:

daeman wrote: We do pretty well in Australia without full sized trucks... Doesn't make full sizes right or wrong. Just means that you can get by without them

Last time I was in Oz, I remember trying to imagine how I would tow a two-car enclosed trailer with what I saw on the roads. There was nothing between a Toyota truck (with a cool folding side flatbed design) and a semi. The way I use my truck simply wasn't represented. So how IS is done in Australia? How would you get two cars and tools and spares from Sydney to Brisbane? It's an honest question, I'm curious. As for people not being able to handle the size of their vehicles - I know exactly how much my truck weighs and what it's capabilities are. It's the smaller cars around me that seem to want to encroach on my space for braking or who like to camp out beside my trailer on the interstate. Since we're generalizing

I don't know about Oz, but I'm surprised at the number of tractors pulling car haulers to NASA and AER events in the last year or two. These aren't balla Ferrari types or pro teams either - just ordinary stiffs with a POS car like ours in the back. As long as it says "Not For Hire" you can drive one with a standard license just like an RV too.

We pull a 48' dual car stacker with an old dually chevy smoker on a gooseneck and sleep in fold out murphy beds in the trailer - so I see the lure of having a kitchen, bathroom and proper AC/heat at roughly the used cost of a brand new, loaded diesel pick-up but it still seems crazy to me.