Ultimate Street Car Association (USCA)?

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Any tire. There's no reason to limit the capability of any car if they're trying to get the Ultimate cars out to events. The top contenders will be very powerful well sorted track cars that are still street legal.

I know 200 TW tires are cheaper but there's other people like me who already have tires they use on track. Buying another whole set of tires is kind of a waste of money just for an event or 2.

The TW rating is an almost arbitrary # the manufacturer makes up. In theory it gives us an idea how long a tire will last. There is no government regulations or testing involved. I've wondered how long it will take for one of the manufacturers to make a soft compound tire and designate it as a 200 TW to be legal for the 200 TW events so they would become the tire of choice among top contenders which would promote additional sales across the board.

This is not a street auto X event. They're not trying to level the playing field, get new people involved in the sport with almost stock cars, or keep people from having to spend a lot of money to be competitive. They're trying to bring out the Ultimate street cars. I disagree that it makes sense to have Ultimate street cars that can easily push over 150 MPH on track on street tires.

Keith Tanner wrote: I asked about my Targa car - given that it's completed thousands of road miles in weather ranging from 100F to a for-real hurricane, I figured it was as much a street car as your typical Pro Touring car. But it has no interior, of course, and it's all business with numbers on the doors. Although I can hit a speed bump at 80 MPH without losing traction, I think that might make it more of a street car than some! "Keith, that car would qualify but it would non score well in out design and engineering segment. This series is for performance street cars and the lack of an interior will not allow it to score well." It's definitely going to be a bit of a challenge weeding out the street cars from the race cars with plates. Obviously, it's intended for Pro Touring cars. But such a slippery slope!

Just saw this and laughed. Full on custom chassis are ok, but you'd better have a carpet if you want to do well, goddamnit.

Cotton wrote: what is the The Hamb? lol There is a lot of thin skin on that forum.

It's a place I stopped going to after I figured out that they took a dim view of any car made of metal that was stamped after the 1950s

Rad, we're looking at two different parts of the event name. You're seeing Ultimate, I'm seeing Street Car.

The UTOQ rating may not be standardized, but other (bigger) sanctioning bodies use it and the tire manufacturers pay attention to it. So it's a legitimate bar to set because it's a consistent one across a number of classes and there's a good selection available.

If you're complaining about a waste of money, I can't see how an unlimited tire would cost any less. You'll end up with guys on qualifying gumballs.

If guys want to run qualifying tires I'm fine with that, as I said, "any tire". There's already a bunch of other events and series run by groups like the ASCS with 200 TW limits. Those who want to run those tires can go there and/or run in the new USCA even if there's no tire limits for the new organization.

I'm not complaining about the price of tires, I'm sure the tires I run cost more than most 200 TW tires. I'm mostly against limiting the cars ability by restricting tires and I think safety may be affected.

Jim had told me (a year or two ago) they were trying to get guys like me with street cars that had full cages, fire systems, etc. to go to some of the OUSCI qualifiers. At that time I explained my position on the tire thing and agreed with him that to get the type of participants they wanted for the OUSCI SEMA event the 200 TW limit made sense. However this USCA is a new thing based on running events at full size road racing tracks throughout the year. I'd like to attend an event or two even though I have little chance of placing well. I will not buy another set of tires that don't work as well just to attend 1-2 events.

I tried running 200+ TW tires on my car at Sebring one weekend. With over 3500 lbs and the heavy braking required on that track the front tires got greasy by mid session. I did not feel safe and had to pull into the hot pits and let the tires cool a bit during the middle of each session for the rest of the weekend. Some of the cars that will attend the USCA events will weigh about the same as mine but will be much faster putting even more heat in the tires. Sebring is on their list.

If the new USCA has a 200 TW limit (which I expect) I'll just do as I have in the past and take my entry fees elsewhere for regular track days.

From the USCA website. Note #1

The competition is for high performance "Street Cars" and must strike a balance to:

1. reach the highest performance on the track

2. contain features that allow it to be driven daily

3. achieve high quality fit and finish

4. involve the use of innovative and cutting edge ideas and parts

Fair enough. I've run my car on street (140, not 200) tires on track as well, and it's definitely less happy. Especially on a tight course, the Toyos overheated and it turned into a slidefest. I do run it on R compounds all the time as a street car.

Since the competition is for street tires, requiring DOT legality seems like a requirement. And the "single set of tires" rule does as well. Maybe combine it with a tread depth check at the end of the weekend, that might rule out the qualifier tires.

Keith Tanner wrote: Fair enough. I've run my car on street (140, not 200) tires on track as well, and it's definitely less happy. Especially on a tight course, the Toyos overheated and it turned into a slidefest. I do run it on R compounds all the time as a street car. Since the competition is for street tires, requiring DOT legality seems like a requirement. And the "single set of tires" rule does as well. Maybe combine it with a tread depth check at the end of the weekend, that might rule out the qualifier tires.

I'll vouch for this. I was there. It was FUN, but it was definitely a slidefest.

Keith, when are you going to take the Targa Miata on One Lap of America?

I run mine on DOT R's (40 TW) on the street. Technically they're street legal. Maybe they'll allow tires under 200 as long as there's a DOT approval? Either way I'd be fine with unlimited tire rules.

And no, I wouldn't buy slicks, my tires work fine for what I do. Plus they wouldn't make me a better driver ahaha.

If this new series is set up well I think some amazing cars may show up seemingly out of no where. There are cars out there that are incredible machines. They don't go to shows or cruise nights and just show up on the street or maybe at a track day or private rental.

Swank Force One wrote: Keith, when are you going to take the Targa Miata on One Lap of America?

Probably never. Too much interstate, not enough track for my taste. The event's never appealed to me.

I think DOT approval would be pretty much required for any series that even pretends to have street cars in it. Some of those aren't actually driveable on the street, of course, so maybe the "road rally" would scare off the Hoosier daddies. Toyo RA1 and R888, Nitto NT-01, the new Maxxis - those would be the tires to use.

Either way they go with the tire decision they are going to alienate some people. My gut feeling though is that there are way more guys with 200+ tw tires that won't buy "race" tires than the other way around. I feel like the GRM crowd isn't really the demographic they are after. also, I think that long term they'd be better off putting a tire limit on. i can see lots of guys with lots of dollars in there car getting turned off if they get spanked by "lesser" cars on hoosiers and not coming back.

Of course, the last time my gut felt something I wound up in the bathroom for 36 hours.

Keith: How badly do we have to beg you/bill cardell to bring atomic betty and see how she does? (that has an interior, right?)

Problem with Atomic Betty is the safety gear. It's got a full interior that looks almost 100% stock, AC, heated seats - all the mod cons. It's a no-question street car. I'd be tempted to drive it 1000 miles to the event just to underline that fact.

That power hardtop really limits the rollover protection options badly. I'm not sure I'd want to launch it over the Corkscrew with the current setup. But I've been thinking about it.

In reply to icaneat50eggs: You're right, there are a lot more people with 200+ TW tires who will not buy race tires and like myself they know they can't compete with the big dogs anyway and are fine with that. They are currently going to events they know they won't win just to have fun and could also do that with the USCA even without tire TW limits.

I think the GRM crowd IS actually the group they're after,. Not necessarily the forum crowd but the regular readership If I remember correctly from survey results. These would be people who can afford to build bad ass cars and meet the 4 objectives I previously listed. The GRM mag appeals to a wide spectrum of people involved in motorsports and while inexpensive things are discussed a lot on the forum there's a whole lot of readers with really nice cars.

There are readers building very capable kit cars, modifying almost every sports car known, updating classic American iron etc. A GRMer is likely to add a lot of unusual features, technical advances, upgrade suspensions, prototype parts, hand built items and so on.

Guys with fancy looking high dollar cars know there's always a better driver, a faster car or someone willing to drive closer to the edge out there. Almost everyone's been spanked by a well driven "lesser car" at some point and they're fine with that because they built a car that they wanted to and are out having fun. Many won't drive anywhere near their cars limit or push their driving skills because there's too much at risk wrecking the car. The few top dogs out there being really competitive will be the one's with the most to gain because they're promoting a company, the rest of us will be moto filler.

Personal opinion from somebody with no horse in this race, with a reasonably unbiased opinion:

Any car being driven on slicks is no longer a "street" car, even if it can easily be converted back to a streetable condition. If the car can't be reasonably used on the street in the configuration that it is competing in, then it is not actually being driven as a "street" car at that point in time. And for people that want to run race tires, that's what ultimate "track" car type competitions are for.

Thus the only way I could see allowing DOT-R tires for a "street" car competition, as opposed to a "track" car competition, is for tires having only circumferential grooves to also be prohibited and with the ability to exclude other potential 'ringer' tires as necessary. Even then, the 200TW (or even 140TW) limit fits the spirit and intent of a "street" car competition better.

Not overdriving the tires is an important safety consideration on any set of tires. Part of the challenge with any high performance "street" car has always been trying to get the most out of less than optimal rubber.

The guys who are willing to pay the extra for another set of tires exclusively for this one competition just to run at the front, will buy whatever tires will be most competitive anyways. But I would guess that the majority of their target market for this competition are running true "street" tires on their cars, and competing against cars on "track" tires is going to be a major turn-off...Even for those only entered for the fun of it, ultimately knowing they won't win anyways. Not to mention that if it genuinely is a high performance "street" car, rather than a "track" car, the owner should already have a set of high performance true "street" tires that are mounted on the car most of the time anyways.

It's the exact same reason many larger autox club would run a separate (and typically very popular) "street tire" index class for cars that otherwise run in "race tire" classes, rather than forcing them to compete directly against cars on "track" tires, as a means of helping keep overall participation up.

I've been following this new USCA thing on several forums. In a thread on another forum Jimi Day one of the organizers wrote "Full roll cages and harnesses will be encouraged, but will not be required to attend and have fun in these events."

I'm curious now what GRMers think about FULL cages in a "street car". If putting sticky tires on a car changes it from a street car to a track car do items like roll bars, roll cages, harnesses, fire systems?

Roll bars definitely don't affect the street nature of a car. Cages, well, in the big american iron targeted by this event, not really. Cages in a small sports car like a Miata definitely affect the streetability as they unavoidably impinge on the cockpit.

Fire systems - I have extinguishers in most of my cars, including my tow vehicle. Harnesses, I ran harnesses in my daily driver for years. So they don't affect the street car nature.

The need to run race gas all the time, on the other hand, would be a disqualifier to me. If you can't go on a road trip without hauling a trailer full of fuel, it's not really a street car.

The definition of "street car" is going to get awfully murky awfully fast with this event, really. The organizers are probably counting on the concours part of the event to police that.

I've seen a lot more high performance cars regularly driven on the street with a roll bar, a cage, harnesses, and/or a fire extinguisher running on true street tires, than I ever will with DOT-R's even sans all the other safety gear.

SCCA also 'encourages' all cars to have a full club racing spec cage as well. Obviously from a liability standpoint, they must encourage all of the safety items possible...In this context, meaning items that help protect the driver from their own mistakes. Race tires actually don't do anything prevent driver mistakes, but they do raise the speed the car is going when the driver makes a mistake.

Changing the rules without changing their spirit/intent, for the benefit of the entire organization, is great...Changing the rules to fit a small hand full of car so that the cars don't have to be changed to fit the rules, is not so much. You don't always know which it would ultimately be if you don't ask the question, but it's all too easy for intentions of the former to become the latter.

I agree Keith, the definition of what they consider a street car will be the deciding factor. there's always been the question of where does the line get drawn about what is street or race. Different organizations have drawn lines at different points whether it be tires or other areas like aero mods or power adders etc. I'm hoping this time the tire limit gets raised.

The rules are being prepared and there was a request for input. Since there are no current rules there wouldn't be any changing of spirit/intent and it might bring more of the type of cars they want to show up (depending on exactly what that is).

I ran Yokohama AO 32's and now the newer AO 48's which are both low TW DOT R tires. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+A048&partnum=93YR8048MH They;re available in 2 flavors depending whether the car is light or heavy and I have the fat car version. These tires came STOCK ON THE ELISE AND EXIGE which I would consider a street car. So if someone with an off the showroom floor Elise or Exige shows up at a 200 TW event they can't play. I'd guess there's a lot of Elises and Exiges on the road. Probably more than cars with full cages.

I'd make part of the competition a 200 mile cruise through downtown wherever at rush hour.

Rad_Capz wrote: I'm hoping this time the tire limit gets raised.

But is that because you genuinely believe the events would be more successful, with greater total participation and/or coverage, specifically due to the additional allowance of race tires?...Or is that honestly just the product of your specific cars eligibility as it sits, and thus your personal interest level? Both are worth voicing, and are somewhat interrelated as well, but the real debate must be at the 'big picture' level.

In reply to icaneat50eggs:

According to the USCA website:

The Road Rally is the single event that establishes the ability for the vehicle to be driven on the street. Routes will typically be 25 to 100 miles long and may or may not include stops. The Road Rally is not a race and all traffic laws must be obeyed. Vehicles must meet rules to enable them to be compliant with safety and environmental laws/regulations. Bonus points will be accumulated for the weekend competition and the series.

I have antique plates on mine, no environmental or safety or inspections stuff needed to legally drive it. I wonder what they'll do about that.

Driven5 wrote:

Rad_Capz wrote: I'm hoping this time the tire limit gets raised.

But is that because you genuinely believe the events would be more successful, with greater total participation and/or coverage, specifically due to the additional allowance of race tires?...Or is that honestly just the product of your specific cars eligibility as it sits, and thus your personal interest level? Both are worth voicing, and are somewhat interrelated as well, but the real debate must be at the 'big picture' level.

I think lowering the TW limit might bring out some people with cars that aren't currently showing up at events. I believe a lower TW limit MIGHT bring out some of those cars by offering something that isn't available at the other similar events currently being run.

Obviously I'd like to be eligible to go as my car sits but it's not as big a deal to me as one might think by reading this thread. Somehow I seem to have become involved in defending my suggestion to offer a lower TW limit than whats currently offered by other organizations. Nothing will change for me if they have a 200 TW limit. I'll just go somewhere else as I have in the past.

It appears the new USCA series is being started by some aftermarket parts companies and seems to be designed to bring out cars showcasing the latest & greatest components, engineering, looks, and so on. It appears to be set up to provide a venue for product promotion using some of the nicest custom street/track cars in the country. So this series is like the extreme opposite of the GRM Challenge, the sky's the limit for budgets, modifications etc.

The "debate" if there is one at all about TW will be among the founders of the new series and whether they feel doing something a little different might be an asset or liability when it comes time to open registration for the years events.

Rad_Capz wrote: I think lowering the TW limit might bring out some people with cars that aren't currently showing up at events. I believe a lower TW limit MIGHT bring out some of those cars by offering something that isn't available at the other similar events currently being run.

Fair enough, but it also might lose some people with cars that are currently showing up at these types of events as well...The big question being, which would ultimately be the more prominent group? You do have a point that a street tire limitation would be following the past and existing successful formula of other series', which is not necessarily the best way to find future success.

Keith Tanner wrote: Rad, we're looking at two different parts of the event name. You're seeing Ultimate, I'm seeing Street car.

These words in the title of the series need to all be included in the spirit of the rules or it will have no standing. They all need to be addressed not just one side or the other.

Ultimate to me means top level. For cars that means performance in all areas. Acceloration, speed, handling both right and left, transient and steady state, braking, reliability,consistency etc..

Street car means reasonably easy ingress/egress, decent ride on real roads, not stopping and creeping over rail road tracks or dragging speed bumps with the front facia or middle exhaust/chassis, no deafening drone or need for ear plugs due to exhaust, wind noise, straight cut gears in a sequential transmission or rattling panels of aluminum or hearing every stone hit the floorpan. Good visibility outward for maneuvering through traffic so good mirrors, a rear window and no seats with head protection bolstering like horse blinders. Brakes that don't require warming up to work or squeal like a garbage truck. No car that has an on/off switch like clutch engagement or is easier to stall then take off smoothly. If it stalls when hot it doesn't take an act of God to restart.

There will always be someone who tries to "game" the system of rules. Well written rules for your goal of ULTIMATE STREET car need to address each side of the equation. Think of someone trying to add as little weight to their Daytona Prototype so it can have lights,wipers,horn and be high enough to get over RR tracks and speedbumps but still be the ultimate when it comes to any performance test. Then there is the guy who takes a Cadillac/Mercedes/BMW that already is luxurious, comfortable and a joy on the road and add performance and/or take stuff off to reduce weight to also add performance.

The first guy may win all the performance categories and come in way down in the comfort areas and score the same as the second guy who does middle of the road to the bottom third in performance tests but does well in comfort. Balance is the key for both the rules and weight of tests to points values. Both ways can work to win and may be as equally challenging from a cost,engineering and function standpoint.