Vanna White 2.0 needs some sound deadening and insulation. As you know, a car with a stripped interior can get noisy. Well, a van with a stripped interior can be more noisy. Also cold.
To those with experience doing this, what are some best practices?
What sound deadening materials do you recommend, where, and how much should I use?
It seems there are two types: heavy stick on rubber mats that absorb some vibration as well as lower the natural frequency of large panels. Also noise absorbtion layer that looks sort of like a thermal insulation.
My understanding based on the youtubes is the rubber mats are best applied in small amounts (~10-20% coverage) to larger panels that may resonate. Not needed on the floor, probably not on the roof if it is ribbed, but big door sections, flat walls, etc. Then the noise absorbtion layer, you want to shoot for full coverage to stop sound waves from going airborne. Does this sound reasonable?
I dont want to go crazy on this project, I'm looking for the 80% of the effect for 20% of the effort type solution.
Interior pic from Vanna White 1.0:
Should I be caulking where the hat/structural sections meet the flat panels?
How should I treat the outside of the hat/structural sections?
If I mount something to the body, whats the best bolt/nut/washer/vibration isolator stackup? Should I just give in and drill out the holes and use well nuts everywhere I can?
Not sure if I'm allowed to link things here, but basically Sound Deadener Showdown (SDS) used to be around and awesome as a resource of information on how to apply, etc and these days, I use Resonix Sound Solutions website as a resource. Here is the exact link I am talking about, but mods, feel free to remove if this isn't allowed.
https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/resources/sound-deadening-materials-reference-information-guide/
The massive CLD coverage seen on the Resonix and competitor websites is nothing but marketing hype.
Covering 25% of a panel is all that is needed to dampen vibration.
SDS archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20201031153434/https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/how-to
WOW that is a clean looking interior , I can only hope that mine would look like that ,
Do they make a fitted "blanket" to go behind the front seats and keep the heat in the front cab ?
When I had my cargo TC, my plan was to put the heavy butyl rubber pads on every large surface, then glue a layer of foam core foil thermal insulation over that, then some type of rolled insulation on top. I never got around to it but I still have all the materials somewhere.
Layer 1: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0751G6TMV
Layer 2: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PLKLZFM
Top layer: Some sort of rockwool(?) insulation?
stanger_mussle (Supported by GRM undergarments) said:
When I had my cargo TC, my plan was to put the heavy butyl rubber pads on every large surface, then glue a layer of foam core foil thermal insulation over that, then some type of rolled insulation on top. I never got around to it but I still have all the materials somewhere.
Layer 1: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0751G6TMV
Layer 2: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PLKLZFM
Top layer: Some sort of rockwool(?) insulation?
Like so? Any recommendations for top layer?
What would you do with the hat section on the left? I'm wondering if just a thin fabric would go a long way there - the k value of steel is ~ 650x that of something like cotton (fabric).
Or is it just not worth addressing the hat sections?
FWIW, this is a reflectix (ish) sandwitch with fabric on top to make something presentable:
Thoughts on something like lizard skin that you can spray. I have used it a few times inside areas I could not get proper mass dampening.
The 25% coverage rule is pretty good. I find that it is easier to just make brown paper templates and cover the whole area in a single sheet but I buy rolls of the stuff. I also go under the carpet and the roof as well if I have something to hide the mats.
FYI really think through how much you need to order. I like the 100 sqf fatmat rolls in 50mL and I uses around two full rolls with cutoffs for my Fod Flex which is around the same size.
Without digging out my senior thesis, here's what I can tell you.
First- high frequencies are easy to kill with something soft and fuzzy to diffuse. The sound waves are really close together, so they are easily scattered with soft goods. Low frequencies are tougher because they're long, and the energy has a greater chance of hitting the surface of something with a straight trajectory. Then they make the panel resonate and just transfer it easily. That's why when you hear a car with a loud stereo drive by, you can hear the booms but not the voices. It's because the bass just keeps going.
The best way to help attenuate lower frequencies is by making the panel resistant to resonance. That's why viscous materials like dynamat work so well. It absorbs the sound energy because it is resistant to movement.
Another thing is that sound hates change. If you really want to wallop it, use a rigid panel in conjunction with something viscous and something soft. I did the trunk of my Impala by putting down butyl foil (dynamat), then covering that with thin MDF, then nice carpet.
I recently installed dynamat behind the back seat on an e30, full coverage including parcel shelf. I also did partial coverage on the outer door skins and trunk floor, and full coverage on the inner door skins, including sealing all holes. The difference was astounding, and every family member has noticed it. I plan another stage at some point, under the carpet.
note this was a 316i, so missing much of the deadening that you'd find on a stock 325i
wearymicrobe said:
Thoughts on something like lizard skin that you can spray. I have used it a few times inside areas I could not get proper mass dampening.
I did some research on this. Interesting product. Not sure if I want to use it or not. Also interesting, despite it being expenisve, its pretty inexpensive to make your own. Searching DIY Lizard Skin yields a lot of results.
They offer a thermal barrier and acoustic and I'm not sure the difference between them.
Lots of reviews, but absolutely zero of them seem to be backed up by any real data. The acoustic reviews are like "sounds better!". On the thermal insulation side... a lot of the general public has never taken thermodynamics and it shows.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
First- high frequencies are easy to kill with something soft and fuzzy to diffuse. -snip- Low frequencies are tougher
Is there a good DIY way to measure which frequencies I'm getting so I can do a better job focusing on them? I've tracked down NVH in the past, but that was in a professional environment with accelerometers, data acquisition, labview, etc.
Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:
I recently installed dynamat behind the back seat on an e30, full coverage including parcel shelf. I also did partial coverage on the outer door skins and trunk floor, and full coverage on the inner door skins, including sealing all holes. The difference was astounding, and every family member has noticed it. I plan another stage at some point, under the carpet.
note this was a 316i, so missing much of the deadening that you'd find on a stock 325i
This is very good to hear.
I received some targeted ads for a wool based insulation product designed specifically for vans. This was the stuff, it looks super intriguing and if I ever build a van I would like to use it.
I'd also want some material to add mass to panels just for sound deadening I expect.
Re: tracking noise frequency: A Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) app on your phone would be an easy way to start, but the microphone may not be good enough (it's designed for speech, so it's not going to pick up low / high frequencies particularly well). Used to be you could get a USB calibrated measurement microphone for ~$100 from Parts-Express, but that's probably overkill.
In reply to TravisTheHuman :
Yep, layered like that. I was just going to cover the wheel wells with Kilmat, use foil tape to cover the seams, and then try and form the reflectrix over that. I was going to then cover that with plywood painted with bed liner to protect the insulation. I know there are a few companies that make interior panel and insulation kits for the Transit Connects and full-size Transits, but they are $$$$.
I see you have a partition already. You might try and seal it up better and put Kilmat on that. That should block some noise and make the cabin more comfortable. Mine had a steel wire partition that did nothing but make a ton of noise. I ripped it out as soon as I got the van home
That partition is gone. Otherwise sealing that would be my top priority. But yeah, having a partition doesn't really work for what I'm trying to do.
RE: Spray foam or Wool, etc, I will not be doing a false wall or ceiling so finishing these options seems like a pain. The goal is to do semi-upholstered panels like in the pic above so I can maintain the extra space offered by the recesses. Some of those recesses will eventually be consumed by a cabinet, storage cubby, etc. haven't fully resolved that part.
im considering a small amount of spray foam inside the hat sections of the body structure, but I imagine that isn't the low hanging fruit.
The thin mdf panels on the doors will be recut from birch ply. I plan to put reflectix or similar on the backside (open to wool or others though), as well as kill mat on the backside of the door panel. I'll isolate the new wool panels with well nuts.
Hmmm, in that case, I think the Kilmat and the Reflectrix should work well. That way you can still maintain the space for cubbies. There are some voids behind the front seats at the front of the floor section and the door cavities that can also be insulated.
What year is your TC? I had a 2015. Europe got a cool cubby that covers the instrument cluster that the US didn't get. I bought a used one on eBay:
The part number for that is DT11V04694A.
I also found some interior LED light assemblies from a Transit. They just snap in but provide a ton more light:
The part number for them is BK2V13776AC
02Pilot
PowerDork
1/25/25 2:04 p.m.
What about adding mass-loaded vinyl? When I redid the interior on my 2002 last year, I combined Kilmat (I used as little as possible, and only on larger panels), padding under the carpet, and MLV from the firewall to the panel behind the rear seats. It's made a fairly significant difference, though it is an old car, so it's never going to be as effective as in something more modern. The only downside is that MLV is heavy; I probably added about 20-25 pounds.
In reply to TravisTheHuman :
There are phone apps, but they're not that useful. Most phone mics have pretty strong compression, and limit inputs to somewhere around 95 dB, but they might get you pointed in the right direction. It might at least give you a graph of the sound band that you could use to see relative improvements in certain frequency ranges, but the two I've tried in my noisy van looked more like a wall of sound on the graph because it was peaking all over the place.
If you have access to a mic interface like a Focusrite, you could plug in a condenser mic to that, and then into your phone and you can turn the gain down on the mic to give you a better picture. I did that in my van to find the quietest place on the dash to put my bluetooth mic for the radio.
stanger_mussle (Supported by GRM undergarments) said:
What year is your TC? I had a 2015.
I also found some interior LED light assemblies from a Transit.
Mine is a 2020. The dash is quite a bit different, but its not bad. I might 3D print a section to hold sunglasses, but otherwise its decent.
Are you talking about the square light in the top RH corner on the C (?) pillar? If so, that's already in mine and its very bright. There was one in my 2019 also, although I could never figure out how to turn it on.
Dynamat is bloody expensive, but there are tons of alternatives. In some colder climates there is a roofing ice/water shield that is basically the same thing. It's a butyl adhesive with a foil backing. I used RaamMat because it was cheaper, and it worked just as well.
Lizard skin I've never used, but I had high hopes for it until I read that some people experience rapid rusting. No idea if that's true or not, but maybe a bit of research will turn something up.
The back of my van will be getting Dynamat (or similar) and then I have a bedrug for it. I'm also going to take off the side panels and hit that with Dynmat too.
gsettle said:
Spray foam!
Non flammable foam shoved into doors and behind panels does wonders, spray foam collects water, catches fire and is impossible to remove.
gsettle said:
Spray foam!
A friend of mine once spooted a generous serving of spray foam between the skin and bracing on the trunk lid of his black MX6 GT. It swole up the way it said it would, making a neat raised imprint in the sheetmetal. He was not impressed with himself.
I would first try to apply something somewhat permanent to every surface that you can eventually cover with something like .25" plywood. Something like bed liner to add density to the steel panels.
