VW may not be Exxon but...

Storz wrote: I wonder how long it will be before we hear of a "solution" to this for current owners?

As a quote from Gameboy's post that may answer your question-

Volkswagen faces an Oct. 7 deadline by the German federal transportation authority to present a plan to bring its cars up to compliance or be banned from German roads.

The solution for Germany should pretty similar for the US, hopefully the timing will be similar, too.

alfadriver wrote:

Storz wrote: I wonder how long it will be before we hear of a "solution" to this for current owners?

As a quote from Gameboy's post that may answer your question-

Volkswagen faces an Oct. 7 deadline by the German federal transportation authority to present a plan to bring its cars up to compliance or be banned from German roads.

The solution for Germany should pretty similar for the US, hopefully the timing will be similar, too.

Thanks, and I agree they need to act sooner than later.

Storz wrote: http://www.vwdieselinfo.com/

Good find, but I do very much question this line-

As environmental protection and sustainability are among Volkswagen’s strategic corporate objectives...

Just saying that in the light of what you have done, VW, does not make it true.

If that was an actual fact for your company, then the problem would have been limited to one or two model years, not 8. And 8 based on what we know now. Could be more.

So if they fit my car with new software that reduces MPGs and power/tq, will I be compensated like the Kia/Hyundai customers were when the mileage rating was changed? What if they decided to add a urea injection system? Will I get a supply of urea for as long as I own the car since I bought the car partly because this system wasn't required?

Side question. Does urea injection affect the power and torque output? However, just adding those systems will require a reflash of the computer to control that system, which will do something.

I suppose you guys may be right. Maybe CARB will crack down on AM tunes. I live in Michigan, the last time any of our cars were inspected for emissions in any way was the day it was built. It is very very easy to drive with whatever "off road only" part you want in this state. Hell, my current cars are the only ones in the last 20 years I've been driving that have functioning catalysts.....or catalysts at all. Its a car guy free for all here. Id be willing to wager there is a significant amount of people driving performance flashed VW diesels around here now. Certainly every diesel pickup I see has a huge exhaust and tuner on it. Apparently we've been spoiled...or poisoned....depending on perspective. God I hope the VW mess doesn't bring about car testing here....again. (Michigan government tried that once before....even built the buildings to test vehicles...then pulled the plug on the project)

Which brings up another thought....what if your ECM is running a aftermarket tune when you're forced to go in for the recall? VW isn't at fault for excessive pollution by a vehicle in this situation. Is the owner then forced to pay for a new ecm?

CGLockRacer wrote: So if they fit my car with new software that reduces MPGs and power/tq, will I be compensated like the Kia/Hyundai customers were when the mileage rating was changed? What if they decided to add a urea injection system? Will I get a supply of urea for as long as I own the car since I bought the car partly because this system wasn't required? Side question. Does urea injection affect the power and torque output? However, just adding those systems will require a reflash of the computer to control that system, which will do something.

My exact questions.

In reply to TGMF:

Other than the California States, no individual has been gone after for putting on or taking off parts. The onus has always rested on the seller of the product that it will be used in a legal manner. So you will be ok.

And unless the air quality around here takes a dump (remember your Ozone action days...), we won't have inspections.

But I do suspect that tuners will get a much closer look at in the near future- once people have a few min to work on aftermarket compliance issues.

As for your tuned ECU- I would bet that VW will not even notice it- they will just flash on the fix, and let you be on your way. If that is just the solution.

TGMF wrote: Which brings up another thought....what if your ECM is running a aftermarket tune when you're forced to go in for the recall? VW isn't at fault for excessive pollution by a vehicle in this situation. Is the owner then forced to pay for a new ecm?

I have "heard" that many tuners will offer no charge reflashing. Though depending on how the solution is implemented, that may or may not be feasible (hardware/major software changes, etc).

CGLockRacer wrote: So if they fit my car with new software that reduces MPGs and power/tq, will I be compensated like the Kia/Hyundai customers were when the mileage rating was changed? What if they decided to add a urea injection system? Will I get a supply of urea for as long as I own the car since I bought the car partly because this system wasn't required? Side question. Does urea injection affect the power and torque output? However, just adding those systems will require a reflash of the computer to control that system, which will do something.

I would not be surprised if you are invited into a class action lawsuit asking those same exact questions.

(don't know the answer to your latter question- I've never gotten much into the oil burning side of the work )

CGLockRacer wrote: So if they fit my car with new software that reduces MPGs and power/tq, will I be compensated like the Kia/Hyundai customers were when the mileage rating was changed? What if they decided to add a urea injection system? Will I get a supply of urea for as long as I own the car since I bought the car partly because this system wasn't required? Side question. Does urea injection affect the power and torque output? However, just adding those systems will require a reflash of the computer to control that system, which will do something.

Ignoring the "it's not the car that I paid for" argument for a moment, I've got to ask. Why is Urea injection such a detriment to you? Is it the added (minimal)cost? The added complexity?

I'm just curious why many diesel owners feel this way. To an outsider like me, it doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

TO your last question, urea injection itself has no direct effect on power or mpg. It's basically post-processing that happens downstream of the engine doing it's thing. Obviously, there is a domino effect where using urea injection causes certain conditions to be met but that' s going to be proprietary stuff. I would even guess that a proper SCR setup might return better fuel economy/power numbers than just reflashing the cars to emissions compliant nature would. Using the SCR can allow the engines to run "dirtier" and then the aftertreatment stuff takes care of the rest.

Urea does not affect power. Infact it can help improve power because you can take a lot of incylinder controls away from the engine and let the downstream system pull out the Nox.

Urea can also improve MPG's over a particulate trap system. the Particulate trap system requires regening concstantly which is usually done by a doser fuel injector post turbo.. Yes.. that's right fuel not going into the engine....

I don't own a VW, but a quick internets surfing seems to indicate 09+ diesels need to have the ECM removed, sent to a tuner who removes the encryption preventing tuning, then flashes it and sends it back to the owner. After that owners are able to CAN reflash the ecm with whatever tune they want in car. (That may or may not be true, but seems to be the widely accepted process.) Therefore it seems extremely likely a dealer would notice and possibly not be able to reflash a tuned ecm. Interesting situations to develop yet as this case continues to unfold.

In reply to TGMF:

In that case, it's an additional problem. There are anti-tampering rules, so if VW sees that someone tampered with their product, they can turn them in. All things considered, I would not be shocked to see VW turn in companies hacking their system.

VW puts a rivet on the computer connection. You have to destroy the rivet to remove the computer from the car. They know right away.

At any rate, all computers post-2010 keep a record of what has been flashed to it and the method used. So they will know if you've thrown a Cobb tune in it, or whathaveyou...

alfadriver wrote: In reply to TGMF: In that case, it's an additional problem. There are anti-tampering rules, so if VW sees that someone tampered with their product, they can turn them in. All things considered, I would not be shocked to see VW turn in companies hacking their system.

VW already has a PR nightmare on their hands. I would think that unless they are compelled by law to "Turn-in" companies altering the stock tune that it would doing so would risk angering some of their bigger supporters and creating an internet E36 M3 storm. Just get the cars to the dealers and make sure they are legal when they leave. Taking on the role of "Enforcer" when they are guilty themselves of cheating the regulations is hypocritical and risks alienating hardcore diesel enthusiasts.

I absolutely will not be surprised to see VWOA decide to become righteous enforcers and alienate their fan base.

In reply to Type Q:

What's worse- pissing off a handful of car people or making a large group of really angry environmentalists happy?

This board would call it bad PR. Others would call it very good PR.

It's not as if they have to be public in turning the tuners in- they can just make the net wider of the "evil".

STM317 wrote: ..To your last question, urea injection itself has no direct effect on power or mpg. It's basically post-processing that happens downstream of the engine doing it's thing....

I would wonder if the current ECU's even have the logic / connections to control a urea system? Much less where to put the tank (as others have noted). I suspect though, the very last thing VW will want to do is to have to fit urea systems so they will do whatever they can to avoid that.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Type Q: What's worse- pissing off a handful of car people or making a large group of really angry environmentalists happy? This board would call it bad PR. Others would call it very good PR.

As you stated, the cars are technically illegal to operate now. For the purposes of the recall, if the ECU programming has been altered since it left the factory, all I am suggesting is write over it with the factory tested / govt. approved program so the car is legal before it leaves the dealership. Leave the questions of who's programming was more illegal or who was trying harder to subvert the regulations off the table. All it takes is for VW to refuse to fix things for one person who bought a 2nd hand TDI, not knowing there was an aftermarket tune installed, to really really piss off the environmentalists.

After the recall is done, if VW decides aftermarket tunes void the emissions warrantee and decide not cover costs to bring things back to legal, I don't see a problem with that.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to TGMF: Other than the California States, no individual has been gone after for putting on or taking off parts. The onus has always rested on the seller of the product that it will be used in a legal manner. So you will be ok. And unless the air quality around here takes a dump (remember your Ozone action days...), we won't have inspections. But I do suspect that tuners will get a much closer look at in the near future- once people have a few min to work on aftermarket compliance issues. As for your tuned ECU- I would bet that VW will not even notice it- they will just flash on the fix, and let you be on your way. If that is just the solution.

hence the reason for saving the OEM tune

TGMF wrote: I don't own a VW, but a quick internets surfing seems to indicate 09+ diesels need to have the ECM removed, sent to a tuner who removes the encryption preventing tuning, then flashes it and sends it back to the owner. After that owners are able to CAN reflash the ecm with whatever tune they want in car. (That may or may not be true, but seems to be the widely accepted process.) Therefore it seems extremely likely a dealer would notice and possibly not be able to reflash a tuned ecm. Interesting situations to develop yet as this case continues to unfold.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to TGMF: In that case, it's an additional problem. There are anti-tampering rules, so if VW sees that someone tampered with their product, they can turn them in. All things considered, I would not be shocked to see VW turn in companies hacking their system.

but in the case of an '09 vehicle .. it's out of warranty .. can't the owner then do whatever (s)he wants … nothing that VW can say …since they are responsible for the car then .. except that now they are again

glad I didn't pay the extra $4 - 5k for a TDI when I decided to buy the Sonic

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Type Q: What's worse- pissing off a handful of car people or making a large group of really angry environmentalists happy? This board would call it bad PR. Others would call it very good PR. It's not as if they have to be public in turning the tuners in- they can just make the net wider of the "evil".

but it would become public pretty darn quickly

wbjones wrote:

TGMF wrote: I don't own a VW, but a quick internets surfing seems to indicate 09+ diesels need to have the ECM removed, sent to a tuner who removes the encryption preventing tuning, then flashes it and sends it back to the owner. After that owners are able to CAN reflash the ecm with whatever tune they want in car. (That may or may not be true, but seems to be the widely accepted process.) Therefore it seems extremely likely a dealer would notice and possibly not be able to reflash a tuned ecm. Interesting situations to develop yet as this case continues to unfold.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to TGMF: In that case, it's an additional problem. There are anti-tampering rules, so if VW sees that someone tampered with their product, they can turn them in. All things considered, I would not be shocked to see VW turn in companies hacking their system.

but in the case of an '09 vehicle .. it's out of warranty .. can't the owner then do whatever (s)he wants … nothing that VW can say …since they are responsible for the car then .. except that now they are again glad I didn't pay the extra $4 - 5k for a TDI when I decided to buy the Sonic

I was thinking the same thing, but then i remembered a post from probably a month ago where GM and Ford and others...including VW, (13 in all) were attempting to use the courts via the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to claim a vehicle owner never actually owns the software inside a ECM. They only purchase the rights to use it when buying the vehicle. I bet this whole VW scandal pushes this legislation through, and the enthusiast looses in the end.

wbjones wrote:

alfadriver wrote: As for your tuned ECU- I would bet that VW will not even notice it- they will just flash on the fix, and let you be on your way. If that is just the solution.

hence the reason for saving the OEM tune

Doesn't matter. For the years affected, the computer keeps a permanent record of all reflashes and who did them/where the flash came from. They will know that it had an aftermarket tune and was reflashed back to stock a few miles before coming to the dealership.

wbjones wrote:

TGMF wrote: I don't own a VW, but a quick internets surfing seems to indicate 09+ diesels need to have the ECM removed, sent to a tuner who removes the encryption preventing tuning, then flashes it and sends it back to the owner. After that owners are able to CAN reflash the ecm with whatever tune they want in car. (That may or may not be true, but seems to be the widely accepted process.) Therefore it seems extremely likely a dealer would notice and possibly not be able to reflash a tuned ecm. Interesting situations to develop yet as this case continues to unfold.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to TGMF: In that case, it's an additional problem. There are anti-tampering rules, so if VW sees that someone tampered with their product, they can turn them in. All things considered, I would not be shocked to see VW turn in companies hacking their system.

but in the case of an '09 vehicle .. it's out of warranty .. can't the owner then do whatever (s)he wants … nothing that VW can say …since they are responsible for the car then .. except that now they are again glad I didn't pay the extra $4 - 5k for a TDI when I decided to buy the Sonic

Yes, but this is very outside of a normal warranty issue. So a 2007 car will get recalled, and reworked. As will any pre-2007 car if they find out that this cheating goes back farther than this current engine.

Also, just because a car is outside of a warranty time frame, that does not make it legal to tamper with the emission control hardware- so the tuner can be turned in for selling a defeat device or a tampering device.

I know that seems odd, but that is how the rule works.

It's like the people who say "I live in (x) state, we don't have emissions testing so this doesn't apply to me"

That state is part of the USA, it applies to you. Your state just doesn't check up on the cars driving on their roads.

Likewise, just because it is out of warranty doesn't mean VW is off the hook for circumventing the process that make the car legal in the US. Maybe if the car was 25 years old, since 25 years is the age that individuals may legally import non-compliant vehicles.