If anything changes, I just want to see the EU's rules to be a lot more like ours.
I know many of you don't really care for them, but dealing with them on an every day basis, and how other companies do it- and the long term changes for both cars and the environment, it would be really great to have the same rules for all of the EU.
alfadriver wrote: If anything changes, I just want to see the EU's rules to be a lot more like ours. I know many of you don't really care for them, but dealing with them on an every day basis, and how other companies do it- and the long term changes for both cars and the environment, it would be really great to have the same rules for all of the EU.
If we are going to be broad, wouldn't it be nice if we could all adopt the same headlight standards? Although I am pretty sure that the US wouldn't be the standard we'd want.
mazdeuce wrote: That just says there is no specific criminal penalties, so nobody goes to jail. Still an extensive framework for fines and the CEO and others have lost their jobs, so it's not like people are walking away Scott free.
Is the job loss thing really a penalty or deterrent for these guys? They all have enough cash to live several lives before it runs out. The "disgraced" CEO could end up with a $65 million severance package. How do I get the kind of job where they pay me millions to fire me, and where do I sign up?
In reply to tuna55:
That would do some work to lower the cost of cars, for sure. I'm good with that.
(siding with the most effective standard for the goal)
STM317 wrote:mazdeuce wrote: That just says there is no specific criminal penalties, so nobody goes to jail. Still an extensive framework for fines and the CEO and others have lost their jobs, so it's not like people are walking away Scott free.The job loss thing should be nothing for these guys. They all have enough cash to live several lives before it runs out. The "disgraced" CEO could end up with a $65 million severance package. How do I get the kind of job where they pay me millions to fire me, and where do I sign up?
Depends on who looses a job. Fine and fire a middle manager and some engineers- and that would be a pretty big impact. One that would lead to some changes being held on for some time. It does not take many steps below a CEO where fines and job losses are a big deal.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to tuna55: That would do some work to lower the cost of cars, for sure. I'm good with that. (siding with the most effective standard for the goal)
And maybe we can all adopt NCAP crash testing?
Maybe this will open the books on some commonization, seriously. I know there have been minor efforts in congress to do this.
tuna55 wrote:alfadriver wrote: In reply to tuna55: That would do some work to lower the cost of cars, for sure. I'm good with that. (siding with the most effective standard for the goal)And maybe we can all adopt NCAP crash testing? Maybe this will open the books on some commonization, seriously. I know there have been minor efforts in congress to do this.
Asking that the US Congress works to commonize laws with other countries is like asking us to give away the US.
And getting all the EU countries to agree is like hearding cats.
I still have hope.
alfadriver wrote:STM317 wrote:Depends on who looses a job. Fine and fire a middle manager and some engineers- and that would be a pretty big impact. One that would lead to some changes being held on for some time. It does not take many steps below a CEO where fines and job losses are a big deal.mazdeuce wrote: That just says there is no specific criminal penalties, so nobody goes to jail. Still an extensive framework for fines and the CEO and others have lost their jobs, so it's not like people are walking away Scott free.The job loss thing should be nothing for these guys. They all have enough cash to live several lives before it runs out. The "disgraced" CEO could end up with a $65 million severance package. How do I get the kind of job where they pay me millions to fire me, and where do I sign up?
Yeah, I understand that as you travel down the foodchain, job loss becomes more impactful. But in reality, it's the heads of departments, and divisions that are making these calls, not the low level engineer that's been with the company for a couple of years. Most of the guys with enough pull to make these high level decisions are easily making 6 or 7 figures/year and they've been making that for awhile. They are the ones that have been put on the chopping block so far (more likely to come). Obviously nobody wants to lose their high paying job, but I'm not worried about these guys struggling without a job after decades of making 6/7 figures / year (plus stock options, 401ks, etc)
STM317 wrote:alfadriver wrote:Yeah, I understand that as you travel down the foodchain, job loss becomes more impactful. But in reality, it's the heads of departments, and divisions that are making these calls, not the low level engineer that's been with the company for a couple of years. Most of the guys with enough pull to make these high level decisions are easily making 6 or 7 figures/year and they've been making that for awhile. They are the ones that have been put on the chopping block so far (more likely to come). Obviously nobody wants to lose their high paying job, but I'm not worried about these guys struggling without a job after decades of making 6/7 figures / year (plus stock options, 401ks, etc)STM317 wrote:Depends on who looses a job. Fine and fire a middle manager and some engineers- and that would be a pretty big impact. One that would lead to some changes being held on for some time. It does not take many steps below a CEO where fines and job losses are a big deal.mazdeuce wrote: That just says there is no specific criminal penalties, so nobody goes to jail. Still an extensive framework for fines and the CEO and others have lost their jobs, so it's not like people are walking away Scott free.The job loss thing should be nothing for these guys. They all have enough cash to live several lives before it runs out. The "disgraced" CEO could end up with a $65 million severance package. How do I get the kind of job where they pay me millions to fire me, and where do I sign up?
If you wonder about the impact to these peoples lives, I would not worry too much.
Believe it or not, its not making good or bad decisions that put these managers in power. Its the fact that they MADE decisions. Then they made them stick and made sure they were executed. Most people have no idea how rare of a skill that is.
Trust me, if you know how to hire people and spot talent, and you have a managerial job to get done, you will have a hard time NOT hiring one of these Volkswagen outcast if they get in front of you. This was just ONE bad decision that they made, but at least they made it and executed. Only they know in what set of circumstances.
I wonder if some mid to high level engineer on the Mazda diesel engine program for the USA heard this news and just felt OK.
With OK being a vast improvement over the way he felt the last few years as he was tasked to match the benchmark diesel cars from VW. His performance rating was just satisfactory last year. His wife talked to her coworkers a little ashamed to mention his work. The CEO actually knows his name as the guy who can't figure out the diesel program for the Mazda 6.
Now the most his boss can do is just give him a little deeper bow than usual. Just once. Then back to work to determine what new target their diesel for the 6 should hit. Or if this VW thing makes diesels a bad idea for the USA.
In reply to NOHOME:
Terrible thoughts.
The dark side of capitalism. Head hunting the guy(s) that do terrible things well is a thriving activity.
Advan046 wrote: I wonder if some mid to high level engineer on the Mazda diesel engine program for the USA heard this news and just felt OK.
Yes, and it's not limited to just A high level engineer. A lot of people will be saying- "OH, now I get it."
My boss did that, when we talked.
In reply to Advan046:
For better or worse, I wouldn't be surprised if this does spell the end of diesel cars in the US. At least for low-mid range models where the additional cost of a urea system is harder to absorb. Then again, depending on the quantity of scale, maybe adding urea systems won't cost that much. Time will tell.
alfadriver wrote:Advan046 wrote: I wonder if some mid to high level engineer on the Mazda diesel engine program for the USA heard this news and just felt OK.Yes, and it's not limited to just A high level engineer. A lot of people will be saying- "OH, now I get it." My boss did that, when we talked.
There's probably a word in a different language for the feeling when the person who has been giving you crap for not being sufficiently competent in their eyes finally realizes the actual scope of what they expect you to be able to do.
I got a kickass thank-you lunch on Friday due to one of these epiphanic understandings. High quality 1/2lb burger with bacon, several different kinds of cheese, and an egg fried sunny side up, on one of the best rolls I've had in ages. Heart attack to-go.
In reply to Ian F:
In this particular case, the cost of adding urea injection was said to add ~$400 to the coat of manufacturing each car.
Ian F wrote: In reply to Advan046: For better or worse, I wouldn't be surprised if this does spell the end of diesel cars in the US. At least for low-mid range models where the additional cost of a urea system is harder to absorb. Then again, depending on the quantity of scale, maybe adding urea systems won't cost that much. Time will tell.
This instance won't, but it does illustrate why it will happen. And why it will happen in Europe, too. The rules are already in place. By what I can see, only BMW and Mercedes will be able to keep the premium required to have car diesels- especially in smaller cars.
I think the urea is more perception issue. Like the pin numbers we should have to use with our new to USA chiped cards. Retailers and banks don't want to enable the use of pins because we are a bunch of frantic inpatient people.
Advan046 wrote: I think the urea is more perception issue. Like the pin numbers we should have to use with our new to USA chiped cards. Retailers and banks don't want to enable the use of pins because we are a bunch of frantic inpatient people.
The cost issue is true, at the moment.
Diesels can be clean, it just costs a lot. So much so that it will be really tough for a company to make money selling them vs. gas cars. Lot of smart people are trying to solve that problem, but just as many are developing the gas emissions issues.
In reply to Advan046:
Of course urea is a perception issue. People in this very thread, on a forum by-and-large populated by sensible people, mentioned that they don't want a car that requires it.
Most people seem to not want it because the vehicles will prevent you from driving if the urea tank runs empty. My counterpoint is, vehicles will also prevent you from driving if the fuel tank runs empty, and nobody has a problem with that...
There is a nice Nature article on this.
http://www.nature.com/news/the-science-behind-the-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-1.18426?WT.mc_id=FBK_NatureNews
In reply to Knurled:
I wouldn't mind it, but I bought my car not expecting the expense of it. Now if it is a retrofit (highly doubt it), and VW reimburses me for the expense, that will take away the sting a bit.
I'm so frustrated I can't see straight after spending the morning looking at a C-Max, Focus, Impreza, and Volt. The idea that I could spend $400 (or mark it up to $1000) more for the TDI and get what I wanted is infuriating. There isn't another vehicle on the market that comes close to that thing in the areas I care about. I'm going to waste at least the $400 in my hourly rate test-driving cars on my candidates list to find the one which is the smallest letdown.
Read that a 'technical solution' could be revealed as early as Wednesday (10/7)
Knurled wrote: Most people seem to not want it because the vehicles will prevent you from driving if the urea tank runs empty. My counterpoint is, vehicles will also prevent you from driving if the *fuel* tank runs empty, and nobody has a problem with that...
Urea wouldn't bother me either. There's a review of the new Colorado Duramax in the latest Autoweek Daily and it has a DEF system. Chevy engineers had the foresight to make the DEF tank size coincide with the oil change interval (~7500 miles). Change the oil; top off the DEF tank. Sounds pretty simple to me.
Ian F wrote:Knurled wrote: Most people seem to not want it because the vehicles will prevent you from driving if the urea tank runs empty. My counterpoint is, vehicles will also prevent you from driving if the *fuel* tank runs empty, and nobody has a problem with that...Urea wouldn't bother me either. There's a review of the new Colorado Duramax in the latest Autoweek Daily and it has a DEF system. Chevy engineers had the foresight to make the DEF tank size coincide with the oil change interval (~7500 miles). Change the oil; top off the DEF tank. Sounds pretty simple to me.
Part of the problem is that small cars don't have room for the DEF tank. On the VW sportwagen they sacrificed the rear independent suspension to have the tank. Also they will have to inject a lot more to actually meet the emissions standard, so that means filling the tank often or having a still larger tank.
I agree that on a pick up truck it should be easy enough to have a big DEF tank.
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