VW may not be Exxon but...

Ransom wrote: I'm so frustrated I can't see straight after spending the morning looking at a C-Max, Focus, Impreza, and Volt. The idea that I could spend $400 (or mark it up to $1000) more for the TDI and get what I wanted is infuriating. There isn't another vehicle on the market that comes close to that thing in the areas I care about. I'm going to waste *at least* the $400 in my hourly rate test-driving cars on my candidates list to find the one which is the smallest letdown.

Couldn't you just get whatever VW with the TSI engine and pocket the new incentives they just rolled out? That should ease the pain of the lost mileage.

Ransom wrote: I'm so frustrated I can't see straight after spending the morning looking at a C-Max, Focus, Impreza, and Volt. The idea that I could spend $400 (or mark it up to $1000) more for the TDI and get what I wanted is infuriating. There isn't another vehicle on the market that comes close to that thing in the areas I care about. I'm going to waste *at least* the $400 in my hourly rate test-driving cars on my candidates list to find the one which is the smallest letdown.

Maybe try and get ahold of a 2016 Volt? They look seriously improved over the first gen in pretty much every area. Better looking (subjective), better electric range, better overall range, better fuel efficiency, more power from the range extender and you don't have to use Premium unleaded anymore.

Sorry for the "me me me" threadjack... I don't mind discussing it here, but if you don't want to clutter this thread, there's here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/what-car-not-a-tdi-sportwagen-edition/105999/page3/

Short(ish) answers: We don't want to give VW any money. To paraphrase The Princess Bride, where we come from, there are penalties when a manufacturer lies. The 2016 Volt might be here in December if we order now sight unseen... That's longer than we want to share the E28 as the only real car in the house. And although it's pretty hand-wavey, the only first drive of the 2016 I've found which mentions the topic says the outward visibility is one aspect that isn't improved, and that's why we wrote off the current version.

Ransom wrote: Sorry for the "me me me" threadjack... I don't mind discussing it here, but if you don't want to clutter this thread, there's here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/what-car-not-a-tdi-sportwagen-edition/105999/page3/ Short(ish) answers: We don't want to give VW any money. To paraphrase The Princess Bride, where we come from, there are penalties when a manufacturer lies.

Used to be, but not so much applicable in today's world. Times done changed since the 2008 financial crisis where the perpetrators of a global economic recesion were given bonuses.

The "Too Big To Fail" doctrine is now institutionalized in the national fabric.

I am running a countdown until we hear something from VW headquarters along the lines of "If we are given all these fines and penalties, we will have to close down the Chattanooga plant." "lets see how long the ex-employees can live on moral fiber and self righteousness."

In reply to NOHOME:

I wonder if they threaten that, the plant gets unionized. It's not as if the problem lies with the people assembling the car.

we have an 09 tdi sportwagen. I've been waiting to see if VW will have a solution before a class action lawsuit. Received the first legal mailing today inviting me to call for a "free case review". Seems that VW should be offering up incentives to owners in exchange for giving up the right to sue. Personally I'd prefer VW offer up a generous trade-in that would make it hard to refuse buying a new VW. Or cash...

kingbeann wrote: we have an 09 tdi sportwagen. I've been waiting to see if VW will have a solution before a class action lawsuit. Received the first legal mailing today inviting me to call for a "free case review". Seems that VW should be offering up incentives to owners in exchange for giving up the right to sue. Personally I'd prefer VW offer up a generous trade-in that would make it hard to refuse buying a new VW. Or cash...

You and me both.

At least in Germany, they said that the recall will begin in January...

Sadly no mention of a buy back or incentive plan, but things could be different stateside.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007

Guess folks can stop holding their breath for cut-rate 2016 TDIs soon?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/volkswagen-pulls-2016-diesel-lineup-from-us-market/

Volkswagen's US CEO testified Thursday that the decision to use emissions cheating software was not made at the corporate level. Instead, it was "software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," Michael Horn told a congressional panel that is investigating the scandal.

I'm pretty dubious about that bit... And apparently I'm not alone.

In reply to Ransom:

From what I've read thus far, the German govt is taking this whole thing seriously as it's a bit of a black-eye on German manufacturing in general. I'm sure the suspended engineers will be questioned and records dug into. Engineers tend to be a conservative bunch and "going vogue" would be surprising... unless they got some sort of direction: "make it work - we don't care how..."

Ransom wrote: Guess folks can stop holding their breath for cut-rate 2016 TDIs soon? http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/volkswagen-pulls-2016-diesel-lineup-from-us-market/

Volkswagen's US CEO testified Thursday that the decision to use emissions cheating software was not made at the corporate level. Instead, it was "software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," Michael Horn told a congressional panel that is investigating the scandal.

I'm pretty dubious about that bit... And apparently I'm not alone.

"For whatever reason" = we couldn't pass emissions and wanted to sell cars.

Ian F wrote: In reply to Ransom: From what I've read thus far, the German govt is taking this whole thing seriously as it's a bit of a black-eye on German manufacturing in general. I'm sure the suspended engineers will be questioned and records dug into. Engineers tend to be a conservative bunch and "going vogue" would be surprising... unless they got some sort of direction: "make it work - we don't care how..."

Dear engineers- the bus only hurts for a short while. And do note we are scheduling your jail time in a German prison so that your direct management can avoid any blame.

(the fact that he repeated this many times was not smart, IMHO. Once one of those congressmen get hold of the actual chain of who knew- well... )

I would think the statements blaming it on some engineer would only result in some whistleblower types to come forward and make a deal to avoid prosecution. Someone certainly sees that either they rat out the management or take the fall themselves. I suppose it may take a little while until folks figure out who has been selected to be the fall guy and whether or not he/she is willing to take the fall.

I can easily see that Horn would have now info on this. At least until 2014. Not Sept 3 2015. How can the defeat device be kept so in the dark that long when there are some rather difficult questions that have to be answered? Horn WAS involved with CARB/EPA holding their 2016 certs. So the problems should have surfaced a little more than a handful of people.

This was 7 years of knowingly doing this. More than a few people had to know and be involved.

In reply to T.J.:

Unless some sort of back-room agreement is being made: "take the fall and you and your family will be... compensated..."

I understand European prisons aren't that bad...

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. Diesel cars from Citroen, Fiat, Renault, Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mitsubishi, Nissan, and Volvo are also under scrutiny for emitting significantly more emissions on the road than they do during dyno tests. There's no evidence yet of defeat devices, but it demonstrates that the industry at large is designing vehicles meet the letter of the law but not the spirit, thus undermining air quality controls.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

I wonder if this is largely due to conflicting design objectives: big HP, strict emissions controls and high MPG.

We have often discussed how cars today don't seem to get the MPG we would expect them to given the technology. Yes, cars weigh more, but it doesn't seem like that would be enough. With gas cars, it seems the engines run rich in order to "feed" the cat for emissions performance to the detriment of fuel mileage. In gas cars, then isn't a huge issue as fuel mileage typically isn't the main driver behind those purchases.

However, people do tend to buy a diesel for fuel mileage reasons (I know I did), so manufacturers have an incentive with those cars to really push the limits on the emissions controls in order to increase MPG.

I don't know... it just seems the whole thing stinks...

Ian F wrote: In reply to T.J.: Unless some sort of back-room agreement is being made: "take the fall and you and your family will be... compensated..." I understand European prisons aren't that bad...

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Be quiet, I am still counting the money. I'll be back on the board in a few years after I get out. Yeah, I did it, I admit it. Nobody else knew. Trust me.

nderwater wrote: There's no evidence yet of defeat devices, but it demonstrates that the industry at large is designing vehicles meet the letter of the law but not the spirit, thus undermining air quality controls.

EVERYONE does this. They have to.

If you think that there isn't a manufacturer that is "teaching for the test" then you're quite an optimist.

Finally some news on what owners can expect from the fix. It looks like the ECUs will be set to run in "cheater mode" all the time. No surprises here, it's a slight reduction in both performance and fuel economy:

http://www.wired.com/2015/10/vw-diesel-cheat-mode-mpg-performance/

define "slight"

if it were to drop the milage of the Golf TDI that I almost bought into the upper 30's as opposed to the mid 40's or better on the highway … I'd be PO'd as heck

In reply to wbjones: The article linked isn't long, and doesn't hide its core.

According to CR, both cars added less than a second in the 0 to 60 mph time. The Jetta saw fuel economy drop from 53 to 50 mpg, and the Sportwagen went from 50 to 46 mpg.

So that's ~8% in the case of the Sportwagen and ~6% for the Jetta (EDIT: specifically it's a current Jetta and a 2011 Sportwagen, so examples of new and previous engine), but again, if it weren't for the spectacular misbehavior, I'd take a TDI Sportwagen that got 8% less mpg and was <1 second slower to 60 in .03 of a heartbeat over the (relative) losers I'm left to choose between.

I'm so lost I had to look up the EPA MPG on a berking Versa Note today while I was waiting to drop off the Leaf to make sure I wasn't overlooking a contender.

In reply to Ransom:

That is pretty huge- we (F) get a lot of flack from CR when our actual numbers undershoot the sticker numbers by that much. If VW doesn't get the same kind of flack, then it will demonstrate some kind of bias to either VW or diesels or both.

Also- that solution also assumes that just turning off the cheat will meet all of the goals. VW does not seem to think that turning it off will meet the emissions targets- at least for the gen1 stuff. maybe the gen 2 parts.

Curious, and sorry if this has been answered, but how much would VW miss the emissions target on the actual test with the cheat turned off?

In reply to MrJoshua:

That has not been answered. Being that for the gen1 cars are being projected to take at least a year plus urea injection hardware to be retrofitted- it's not that close.

Also- not sure if anyone saw the EPA part of the hearings- they are closely monitoring the solutions for their impact on the consumer. Not just the air, but to make sure the consumers are not inconvenienced too much.