Was Elio ever viable, and would you have bought one?

Justjim75 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

You cant get a brand new Prius with a warranty for $7500.  Read my whole post, not just one part please.

A considerable amount of parking in big cities is parallel parking on the street, I was thinking of length not width.

My point was, you wont get 75mpg if you are doing <35mph.  Those are mutually exclusive in the case of the Elio.  You are right you can't get a warrantied Prius for that kinda money, but I doubt many people cross shopping an Elio would care.

A Fit, Mazda 2, Fiesta, Versa note, etc. are all similar in length to the Elio.  I agree shorter is nicer for parallel parking (I do it often in my Veloster and I appreciate that it is 167" long.

I think an interesting exercise is:  if you were to make a 4 door Elio, what would it be?  Because that car would be much more viable IMO.

It might have been viable up until scope creep and hubris had them decide to design their own engine. They should have launched it with some off the shelf motor. That would have been iffy, but there have been niche 2 seat commuter cars that found buyers, from the CRX to the Smart.  But once they decided they'd burn startup capital developing an engine in-house and push back the release date, I think they'd hit a point of no return.

Polaris and Can-Am have both managed to market even less practical three wheelers at a similar price point - or even significantly higher, with Slingshots retailing for $21K. But that does raise almost as many questions as answers. Does that mean that Elio would have required a much larger production scale to build something more carlike, as a Can-Am Spider has a similar price tag but contains far less material and machine work? Would a Slingshot with weather and crash protection attract a wider audience, or would that make it less interesting and hurt sales?

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

Most of what I see from reverse trikes is that they are marketed entirely on image, and nothing else.   

It's hard to be seen in one of these.  

In reply to ProDarwin :

I dont live in a big city, and own (at the moment) a Legacy GT wagon and a Sporster Iron 883.  I think I would be happy with these 2 in a big city anyway, dont have the credit to finance anything so my short answer was "no" but since the whole exercise is a "what if" I am saying a single person in a big city with traffic and parking issues, no place or skills to maintain and repair a complex used hybrid it seems like the Elio might have a purpose.

Freshman in college away from home no mechanical skills? 

Fueled by Caffeine said:

No to all questions. 

Agreed.

It's just not a vehicle made for America, and probably not even Europe.  Maybe Asia.

In the States, anywhere urban enough that it might have been viable, it would have been flattened by commercial or commuter traffic.  And anywhere that you might not get flattened in it, you'd probably have a long enough drive that you'd want something more comfortable to be in for more than 15 minutes at a stretch.

WRT Urban areas where this may be a good option- in all of the major metro areas where it would work- there's also an incredibly robust public transportation system.

If I lived in Manhattan, or even worked there, I would consider something other than a car.

Elio may have sold in similar numbers as the other 3 wheeled options out there, but none of that is relevant to the overall motoring public.

I would have bought one - the turbo version. If I'm going to drive something small and light I need good acceleration to not be a sitting duck on freeways. 

The concept was viable, but every engineering management decision was bad. It needed to be designed for medium volumes (25-50k/year), higher performance and a higher pricepoint. Paul Elio admitted as such when I talked to him at the NAIAS - his chief body engineer told him that the car should've been mostly aluminum extrusions.  There was absolutely nothing to be gained and a ton of money and time lost by designing a new 2-valve-per-cylinder iron block naturally aspirated 55-hp 3-cylinder ICE in 2010 -  a deal with Ford would've gotten them a 123-hp Fox Ecoboost engine if they'd wanted it, and several Japanese manufacturers would've sold Kei engines. The suspension was designed as if they wanted to squeeze every penny out of a 250k+ annual volume; it looked like a high-investment way to make something that everyone could see was cheap.  They acted as if they wanted to be a 4th big American OEM, when they could've been a little specialist automaker. 

Aptera had a better chance but they ran out of money right before the batteries that made their super-low-drag concept work showed up. 

Had they gone with the Ford turbo 3 I think it'd have my interest as I imagine it would be a lot of fun to drive. You're looking at a power to weight ratio competitive with the lower spec Caterham 7s.

I could write college papers about Elio and the viability of 3-wheel tadpoles like it. Jalopnik did a great article on it that honestly, makes Paul out to be someone whom just got too far in over his head instead of something like the Tucker.

Could Elio have been viable? If the car came to production as quickly as the Model S did, probably for a short time. 2010/2012 is still the era where the recession and high gas prices were still felt everywhere so it's not hard to say someone would have traded from a heavily used car to a new Elio- assuming that Elio, to make that speedy deadline, licensed an engine instead of the terrible choice they decided otherwise and made it's repair very accessible. Problem would have been even if you passed those hurdles you run headfirst into 2012-2015 where gas costs continued to drop. By now (even before this hell year) it would be pretty silly to be selling a car on fuel efficiency when it's $1.80/gallon in some states.

The other issue is, how DO you sell it? What's it's suspension setup again, it's interior space? Go for young adults and it's sporty, but can you both be sporty AND thrifty to American sensibilities? You're also only driving the rear wheel- great for responsiveness, but Elio would have had to either make their own transmission or heavily modify a different one to remove the differential, adding to the costs. Finally, how do you sell anything to us Yanks if it doesn't have 100 horsepower or more? The Mirage skirts this by obvious methods, but even the Prius has to combine engine power and motor power for a "combined" rating that in reality makes no sense; the Elio can't do that, so you're telling some schmuck who drove past a few Suburbans it's only got ~80 some horsepower.

I think a 3-wheeler could work in the States, but you have to pull every stop and REALLY go hard into something wild. As the other 3-wheeler that might come to market- the Sondors- shows, you have to attract people to a more Boutique mindset- Alfa-Romero lookin', EV, 3-seater, and a price that after the tax credit will put it lower than the cost of a new Mirage and comes with a full factory service manual for repairs. And even then, it's a big 'maybe'.

EDIT:

Would I have bought one? If it came out at that time- and had I been able to plan to buy one and liked how it drove- yes. In 2012-2014 I was regularly doing massive cross-state drives, racking up 250+ miles per day alone between cities and stations for my work. Assuming it came to production with an engine from a supplier like Ford and drove well, I would have taken that chance.

No, it being 3 wheel is a big no, and it got midly better mpgs than what I was driving at the time. 

I know it has been mentioned that this would be a good city car.   


Honestly, I see the opposite.   It would be great for small rural communities, much like golf carts are used now.

Except it isn't as good at carrying a keg.

chaparral said:

Aptera had a better chance but they ran out of money right before the batteries that made their super-low-drag concept work showed up. 

Aptera is back with a new round of funding.  While I still give it maybe a 50% chance of actually becoming a real vehicle people can buy, I'm still optimistic.  It's now all-in on being an EV with on-board solar charging - as it looks like they plan to stick solar panels on every semi-flat surface possible.

I give the Aptera a little more of a chance than the Elio for a couple of reasons. For one, it looks really cool. The Elio looked like it was designed by a committee of what some grade school kids thought a commuter vehicle should look like.  Second, so far Aptera hasn't proposed any ludicrously low buy-in price - which the Elio needed because it was so damn ugly. 

This doesn't mean I really think the Aptera will succeed (my 50% guess is purely based on my own optimism), but I think it has a better chance than the Elio ever did.

I'm still undecided on whether Paul Elio is a manipulative con man, or merely a persuasive and persistent idiot...Either way, Elio Motors was never even close to viable. The entire business plan was a complete joke from day one.

While I really do like the idea of a well engineered trike, with a family and fleet size constraints, every vehicle has to be able to fulfill mutliple roles. A 2 seater would at the very least have to be able to fill the 'fun toy' role, in addition to the commuter rold, and I just don't think the Elio could or would...Especially since that generally means going topless for me.  So no, even in the fantasy world where they hit all their targets, I still probably would not have considered one for my fleet.

1400 lbs, 55 hp, $7000-promised-and-probably-$8995-delivered didn't work.

Would 1200 lbs, 120 hp, $14000 have? It would've hit both "commuter" and "fun" at least

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

I actually kinda hope Aptera succeeds, mostly because of that goofy solar roof; I know it's nowhere near efficient, but it'll be damned if gaining 20 miles of range while I'm at work doesn't feel like -future-.

In reply to chaparral :

10 pounds per horsepower would be Ferrari territory for power to weight; if it ever came to market like that, it would be an absolute riot. But what suspension design were they going for?

Tom Suddard said:

Yeah... I don't get it. In what world would somebody buy an Elio when this exists:

Because it's a Mitsubishi. The Elio was, and is, as much a car as that is.   
i've never known a mitsu owner that hadn't thought about jumping off a bridge at least once in bis/her life. 

DrBoost said:

Tom Suddard said:

Yeah... I don't get it. In what world would somebody buy an Elio when this exists:

Because it's a Mitsubishi. The Elio was, and is, as much a car as that is.   
i've never known a mitsu owner that hadn't thought about jumping off a bridge at least once in bis/her life. 

The Mitsubishi can seat more people, haul more stuff, and survive an impact better. It can be serviced at a dealer network too. As depressing as it may be to a car person, it's way more appealing to a broader number of people than an Elio

Mndsm said:

 

As for elio, no. Call me gun shy but I'm still not trusting of the battery tech that's out there. 

I wasn't aware that they were planning an electric version. All of the prototypes I saw had engines.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

You're also only driving the rear wheel- great for responsiveness, but Elio would have had to either make their own transmission or heavily modify a different one to remove the differential, adding to the costs.

 

Pretty sure that they had transverse engines in the front powering the front wheels only.

No. Gas is cheap.  Other cars are...actual cars, and more efficient. 

 Driving a 3 wheeler on the street sounds like a giant pain in the ass. Wanna dodge that pothole? good luck.  Straddle a road kill? Better rethink that, then decide which wheel you want to splatter it with.   Then there's snow. All the other cars make two tracks which are generally snow free or packed down enough getting stuck isn't a concern. Further, driving on packed ice is actually quite stable at relatively high speed on four good tires.    Not here. The one rear wheel is forced to go through the deepest snow at all times.  I can only imagine how much of a handful this thing would be all the time in the winter.  

Wouldn't work for me anyway, as multiple kid daycare drop-off is part of my morning.....and I'd like them to have a chance at survival if we were in a wreck.

There was a purple Corbin Sparrow  three wheeler that made the trip out of RTP when I540 was first built. It'd do 70 mph, and I'm sure it got good gas mileage.

The Elio just reminded me of the Corbin. 

I wasn't interested at all. As someone who had a long highway commute in a small car for years, I found myself wanting a larger car after a while, not something even smaller. Being cramped in a single seat cabin doesn't sound like fun on a 50+ mile commute.Other than that, in a perfect world, if everyone was driving these little 3 wheelers, a long commute wouldn't be so bad. In reality, most of the stuff on the highway already dwarfed my compact car, and there were multiple times daily I'd almost get hit by someone in something larger that didn't see my car. Also, like others have said, advances in technology and the availability of lower priced, pre-owned fuel efficient "normal" vehicles make these less appealing by the day.

If I wanted something like that, I'd import a Honda Beat.

Tony Sestito said:

I wasn't interested at all. As someone who had a long highway commute in a small car for years, I found myself wanting a larger car after a while, not something even smaller. Being cramped in a single seat cabin doesn't sound like fun on a 50+ mile commute.

And that's the fundamental issue, not just with the Elio, but with everything at all like it.

If the daily trip is short enough that a car like that is comfortable and practical, it's short enough that extra fuel economy isn't really much of a payoff.

Conversely, anybody with a long enough commute to benefit from the difference between 35 mpg and 45 mpg isn't going to enjoy spending their 2+ hours a day stuck in something that small and spartan.

I knew the hive would have all of these great opinions.  For me, I switch back between a fiesta st, supercharged miata and a supercharged mustang gt.  When I drive one of our smaller cars, I do appreciate the gas mileage, and also our smaller cars have zip.  My mustang has modified suspension, but still seems vast and luxurious  compared to our other cars.  When I get back into the miata, I'm amazed at how small and low the thing is.

I only have a 25 minute commute, so years ago I thought the Elio would be a fun way to just get back and forth to work.  At the time I was driving a truck that would use almost a quarter tank a day.  I'm not one who really looks at gas prices that much, but that seemed like money I could have put elsewhere (like into mustang fast parts).

I'm averse to motorcycles, so the Elio seemed like a safer bike.  Alas, I will not get to even try one out, and thanks to some of your opinions I may be glad I didn't.  It's a pity that there really isn't the equivalent to my old CRX.  That car was fun, quick and good on gas---and cheap.  Maybe it wasn't safe, I don't know.

Just a thought:  I  had not been in a dealership since I had bought my 1980 something civic.  School kept me from fun cars for years.  We were in a honda dealership and he was trying to sell me a honda hybrid  two seater that cost something like 23 grand.  it got fuel mileage in the 50ish mpg.  I told him they had not progressed at all because my 85(?) four speed civic got 42 mpg on the highway and sat four people.  The car cost me eight grand!  I guess the elio isn't much much different when you compare it to the old cars, but you get my drift.