What The berkeley GM!! Torx bolts on the brake calipers?

I had 80's GM trucks that used Torx fasteners for marker and turn signal light replacement, so that's at least 35 years of Torx fastener in an automotive application.

As others have said, it's like any other fastener, it's all about using the right tool for the job.

For example, 12 point wrenches and sockets instead of 6 point can round off stubborn hex head bolts or the tool itself can fail ( and only gets worse if mixing metric and SAE).

Torx is better for manufacturing and if you have the tools they are less likely to strip when compare to Phillips.

In reply to jstand:

Speed of assembly, indeed! For example, good luck sticking a shallow-headed bolt on a socket on an extension and walking it out to a hole you can't even see let alone get a hand on. You can do that with Torx, the bolt stays ON the socket unless you pull it straight off. I can see that making robotic assembly much easier/smoother.

I recently did my first timing belt service on a TSi-engined Golf. Practically every fastener is Torx except for the idler pulley and motor mount bracket bolts.

fritzsch wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to Mazdax605: Buy a quality tip with a socket base and gently hit it with an impact. Not full on, just a tap, tap, tap, about as fast as you can say it. It works every time for me.

Arent they usually on the back side of the caliper and not a lot of space to get an impact in there?

don't you normally turn the wheel to full lock to make your life easier when doing the front brakes?

or am i the only person in the world that does this?

If you want to complain about a fastener, make it triple square. Then add Loctite. Then make it hidden. Then make it a small head on a giant bolt. Then torque it to 50 foot pounds, plus 3/4 turn.

I often wonder what the hell they put in the water in Germany.

Meh I don't mind as long as it's not some odd size that's hard to come about. Etorx are obnoxious though, I've rounded a few of those. The head on the bolts for a VW were softer than some frozen yogurt desserts.

Mike wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Mike wrote: I don't think torx should be on fasteners used to access wear items that are generally customer replaceable. As I try to define this, I acknowledge it is fuzzy. At the least, oil changes, air filters and bulbs other than instrument backlighting should not require torx.

Because Phillips-head fasteners that round out are so much better. Torx is awesome. The only fastener more awesome is XZN because it has all of the advantages of Torx, while having a much larger root diameter for the tool.

False dichotomy. Just as poor quality torx is a problem, poor quality philips is a problem. Torx does tend to have more positive engagement and better resistance to stripping, but using a high quality philips tool will go a long way toward successful driving. Still, that has nothing to do with me favoring philips. I favor philips because there are maybe three sizes to cover most situations that aren't electronics or watches, and you can usually get by with the wrong size anyway. Pretty close to everyone owns at least one philips screwdriver. You can buy them at just about any store. There is a good chance you already have one in your car, or on your keychain, pocket knife or purse. I've ruined a lot of philips fasteners, and I still think it has a place. I am starting to question my life decisions, since I'm on the internet arguing about the advantages of philips over torx. Clearly, mistakes have been made.

All I have to say is you're wrong, except for that last part, you have made mistakes by somehow thinking a philips head has any advantage over a torx head. What makes a philips "easy" to use (the point) also makes its engagement E36 M3ty. And low and behold, once again, there IS a better screwdriver than a philips that is just as easy to use THE ROBERTSON, which surprise surprise was made by a Canadian

Philips drivers are actually DESIGNED to wreck the head specifically so you don't overtorque the screw in question, look it up. If that isn't a E36 M3ty design, I don't know what is because I'm much more concerned about removal than installation.

The trick with the torx bolts are to hammer in the bit, pull it out, scrape any rust out of the bottom with a small screwdriver and them hammer it in again. Between ensuring the bit is seated correctly and the hammering, it won't give you any trouble.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: The trick with the torx bolts are to hammer in the bit, pull it out, scrape any rust out of the bottom with a small screwdriver and them hammer it in again. Between ensuring the bit is seated correctly and the hammering, it won't give you any trouble.

I used that trick when trying to get these bolts loose, but the problem was these bolts don't allow for very deep penetration due the head design. If you could bury the whole torx bit into the bolt it would probably be a good design, but these bolts are terrible. Also I think they were tightened by Andre the giant. Anyway I got the job done and the brakes feel much better. Still have a vibration /pulsation under heavy braking though. Not sure how as I replaced the rotors and pads. Maybe the rears?

Streetwiseguy wrote: If you want to complain about a fastener, make it triple square. Then add Loctite. Then make it hidden. Then make it a small head on a giant bolt. Then torque it to 50 foot pounds, plus 3/4 turn. I often wonder what the hell they put in the water in Germany.

No, no, see, XZN is awesome. You can put stupid amounts of torque through it without stripping the faster or breaking the tool. That is exactly why German makes use it for critical drivetrain fasteners.

I have never once rounded out an XZN bolt or broken an XZN tool. As opposed to a bazillion rounded out Allen bolts and broken Torx sockets. If I could convert every bolt to XZN, I would.

I fully recognize that I am probably the only person in the Western Hemisphere who actually likes XZN. But that's because I see it for how useful and practical it is. I'm not crazy! I'm the ONLY SANE MAN

I have broken off a couple of Torx bits, but they were cheap ones. But I would much rather break a bit than strip out a bold head.

novaderrik wrote:

fritzsch wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to Mazdax605: Buy a quality tip with a socket base and gently hit it with an impact. Not full on, just a tap, tap, tap, about as fast as you can say it. It works every time for me.

Arent they usually on the back side of the caliper and not a lot of space to get an impact in there?

don't you normally turn the wheel to full lock to make your life easier when doing the front brakes? or am i the only person in the world that does this?

Who knows, half the time I forget I own an impact wrench.

fritzsch wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

fritzsch wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to Mazdax605: Buy a quality tip with a socket base and gently hit it with an impact. Not full on, just a tap, tap, tap, about as fast as you can say it. It works every time for me.

Arent they usually on the back side of the caliper and not a lot of space to get an impact in there?

don't you normally turn the wheel to full lock to make your life easier when doing the front brakes? or am i the only person in the world that does this?

Who knows, half the time I forget I own an impact wrench.

That's the second thing to come out of the tool box. Right after the BFH.

bgkast wrote: You guys should stay away from sweedish cars if you don't like torx bolts.

Saab made me really appreciate Torx. I think they are great

Wife's focus slider pins were 7mm Allen key. I have 3 sets of Allen keys and all of them skipped from 6 to 8mm. Bought the damn 7mm bit. Also had to spend more time going to rent the caliper tool to twist the piston from autozone than the time spent actually replacing the rear brakes.

I am in the process of converting all my vehicles to Whitworth-threaded fasteners with Reed and Prince heads.

novaderrik wrote:

fritzsch wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to Mazdax605: Buy a quality tip with a socket base and gently hit it with an impact. Not full on, just a tap, tap, tap, about as fast as you can say it. It works every time for me.

Arent they usually on the back side of the caliper and not a lot of space to get an impact in there?

don't you normally turn the wheel to full lock to make your life easier when doing the front brakes? or am i the only person in the world that does this?

no need to on my CRX … pads are drop in, and rotor replacement is 2 17mm bolts

I would rather have Torx or a Bolt. Alan head and Phillips just seem to end badly

IIRC GM has had Torx on their vehicles since the late 70's. They were developed in the late 60's to prevent stripping.

Mazdax605 wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: The trick with the torx bolts are to hammer in the bit, pull it out, scrape any rust out of the bottom with a small screwdriver and them hammer it in again. Between ensuring the bit is seated correctly and the hammering, it won't give you any trouble.

I used that trick when trying to get these bolts loose, but the problem was these bolts don't allow for very deep penetration due the head design. If you could bury the whole torx bit into the bolt it would probably be a good design, but these bolts are terrible. Also I think they were tightened by Andre the giant. Anyway I got the job done and the brakes feel much better. Still have a vibration /pulsation under heavy braking though. Not sure how as I replaced the rotors and pads. Maybe the rears?

this is USUALLY due to unequal pad deposit on the rotors … even if they aren't race pads, you can usually benefit from bedding them in as though they were race pads …

with the race car I usually have to do this only once … but with my old winter beater Impreza, I had to do it twice, and with the F150 I had to do it 3 times … but in both cases, once truly bedded in, they gave me no more trouble

So, no love for square drive?

wbjones wrote:

Mazdax605 wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: The trick with the torx bolts are to hammer in the bit, pull it out, scrape any rust out of the bottom with a small screwdriver and them hammer it in again. Between ensuring the bit is seated correctly and the hammering, it won't give you any trouble.

I used that trick when trying to get these bolts loose, but the problem was these bolts don't allow for very deep penetration due the head design. If you could bury the whole torx bit into the bolt it would probably be a good design, but these bolts are terrible. Also I think they were tightened by Andre the giant. Anyway I got the job done and the brakes feel much better. Still have a vibration /pulsation under heavy braking though. Not sure how as I replaced the rotors and pads. Maybe the rears?

this is USUALLY due to unequal pad deposit on the rotors … even if they aren't race pads, you can usually benefit from bedding them in as though they were race pads … with the race car I usually have to do this only once … but with my old winter beater Impreza, I had to do it twice, and with the F150 I had to do it 3 times … but in both cases, once truly bedded in, they gave me no more trouble

I replaced the front rotors though. Not sure you can get deposits in 2 miles of driving.

Don't forget the "Torx-Plus" screws and bolts.

Looks almost like a regular Torx, but you will strip the the head in an instant if you try to use a normal Torx bit in it.

The guy that tought that was a good idea should be kicked in the nuts repeatedly. Just MHO.

Count me amongst the Torx haters. My latest project, a Jeep XJ, has renewed my feelings on the subject. Trying to remove the seat belt latches for the rear seats in preparation for bedlining the interior resulted in two stripped fasteners and me eventually saying "berkeley it, I'm just gonna mask the damn things off and spray around them." Which I did. Maybe I just need better bits, but I soaked the fasteners in PB Blaster, put the bit on my impact, seated it by hitting the ass end with a dead blow, and pulled the trigger in 1-2 second bursts, so my methodology was pretty much by the book. Still stripped the bastards.

If I would have seen Torx bolts on the brake calipers when I went to remove them yesterday, step one would have been welding a hex nut on them. I understand the theoretical advantages over hex head bolts, but in my experience I have witnessed a MUCH greater rate of failure on Torx. With even a crappy 6 point socket, that sucker has to be STUCK to round the head off.

In reply to Furious_E:

It likely wasn't rust that defeated you, with the seat belt bolts. Probably was thread lock. I had similar trouble with my S10, and when I applied some heat, they came right out.

RealMiniParker wrote: In reply to Furious_E: It likely wasn't rust that defeated you, with the seat belt bolts. Probably was thread lock. I had similar trouble with my S10, and when I applied some heat, they came right out.

Hmm, I hadn't really thought about that, just assumed rust was the issue judging by the amount of it present elsewhere, but you're probably right. I was reluctant to break the torch out anyways for fear of damaging the belts themselves.

The BMW S1000RR uses ALL torx head bolts. Torx doesn't seem to be more troublesome than JIS (technically not Philips), but the rarity of the tools adds a bit of a PITA factor.