In reply to dean1484 :
The folks at Honda seem to have no problem making motors that rev that high without issue.
Now as far as my universe goes; you're welcome here anytime, it's a happy place full of cheap and sturdy fun cars. You will have to do an occasionally oil change though.LOL
Honda doesn't make engines that rev high anymore. They are all boost and low revs.
IIRC the big issue with the BMWs (and at over 500cc/cylinder they are much bigger than the 1600ish CC fours) was bearing materials.
Anybody remember G60 Volkswagens? Their rod bearings only lasted about 60k miles. Short rods, long strokes, big forces on small bearings. They'd wipe all the overlay off of the copper. My experiences with 136mm rod Audi fives suggest that they also had problems but the difference is that people didn't tend to rev out their 5000 Turbos like people would a Corrado. I suspect that a lot had to do with the fairly short (for a modern engine) 220mm-ish deck height and fairly narrow bearings dictated by the 88mm bore centers. Not much room for a wide rod bearing if you also want decent counterweights.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
This isn't helping my aversion to modern German cars.............
If it's any consolation, the Volvo 2.4l T5 shortblock (basically an R engine with 81mm bores vs. 83mm bores) that I rebuilt had beautiful ROD bearings, but the CRANK bearings looked kinda raunchy, so I replaced those.
That isn't too ugly. Ugly was that every bolt in the bottom end was a single use bolt, and they're frighteningly expensive. I would have upgraded to ARP all the things, but those are even more expensive. Close to $400 just for the main studs. Nope. Volvo whiteblocks aren't known for bottom end issues, just cracking the tops of the bores, which is why I wanted the 81mm RN engine vs. the 83mm engine that requires shimming the cylinder walls if you want them to survive even stockish power levels.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:IIRC the big issue with the BMWs (and at over 500cc/cylinder they are much bigger than the 1600ish CC fours) was bearing materials.
The narrow bearings is what hurts BMW as well, since they're mostly inline 6s and there's a lot of incentive to keep the motor as short as possible. There just isn't much room for a lot of bearing material.
Tom1200 said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
This isn't helping my aversion to modern German cars.............
Modern German cars don't have the bearing issues either, since they've also gone low RPM and added boost. The last BMW with "replace rod bearings on a schedule" maintenance was the E92 M3 and it went out of production in 2013.
I always learn stuff here.....even when I post silly things for the sake of being silly.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Tom1200 said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
This isn't helping my aversion to modern German cars.............
Modern German cars don't have the bearing issues either, since they've also gone low RPM and added boost. The last BMW with "replace rod bearings on a schedule" maintenance was the E92 M3 and it went out of production in 2013.
A well known engine builder's mantra was that RPM Ruins Peoples' Motors.
That didn't stop me from wanting an E46 M3 because RPM makes me smile. And that SOUND from independent throttles on an inline six! So what if I had to replace the rod bearings every other year. That wouldn't hurt as much as the crazy expensive oil changes. They take, what, 5W60 oil? Not too many people make that and they charge what they can because what else are you going to buy?
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The motors do sound awesome. I also understand why one would make the tradeoff.
Perception of makers reliability got me thinking - in the mid-80s, I lived in Alaska and drove a Subaru 4WD wagon. It got semi-regular maintenance (it belonged to the company), but it never gave me *any* trouble at all. Period. I was a Subaru fan boy.
After I moved back back to America, I didn't need a 4WD or a wagon, so no more Subarus - but I still had a good feeling about them.
After hanging around here about 15 years and reading head gasket horror stories, don't think I would ever touch a Subaru.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:That didn't stop me from wanting an E46 M3 because RPM makes me smile. And that SOUND from independent throttles on an inline six!
The S54 is indeed a glorious motor.
CJ said:Perception of makers reliability got me thinking - in the mid-80s, I lived in Alaska and drove a Subaru 4WD wagon. It got semi-regular maintenance (it belonged to the company), but it never gave me *any* trouble at all. Period. I was a Subaru fan boy.
After I moved back back to America, I didn't need a 4WD or a wagon, so no more Subarus - but I still had a good feeling about them.
After hanging around here about 15 years and reading head gasket horror stories, don't think I would ever touch a Subaru.
The 80s Subarus were tanks as long as you lived where they didn't salt the roads. Mostly they didn't make enough power to hurt anything or overheat much, although the turbo engines loved to crack cylinder heads.
The EJ18 and EJ22 engines in the Imprezas and Legacies were also stout, and the chassis were better but still rust prone, but more like Nissans and not IH Scouts.
The EJ25 would drool oil from the head gasket after about 180-200k and need the head gaskets replaced. If you lived where they salted the roads, this was a non issue because the rest of the car rarely lasted that long.
The FB25s.... they last forever as long as you check the oil and add as necessary. Stop checking the oil and bad things happen. The rest of the cars seem to be pretty rust resistant anymore, at least, so they're usually worth fixing.
People love the Nissan VQ35 engine but it's awful for external head gasket leaks. Fortunately rust usually takes the containing vehicle off the road first. I have an Altima at work right now where the rear subframe is held in by luck and entropical inertia, because most of the body where it attaches to is either very weak or missing entirely. And another shop just did brakes and calipers on it, and they want us to do emissions repair so they can register it for two more years.... oy vey.
Ohio doesn't have vehicle inspections to take vehicles off the road, sodium chloride takes care of that without all the messy paperwork.
I own two J-series Honda V6 motors that require timing belt changes every 7 years or 100k. I used to complain about it, until I've seen so many stories of timing chain and guide failures. Now I'm OK with changing the belt every 100k. They also suggest valve adjustments every 100-200k, which are probably just as much of a pain as the timing belts. Those I could live without, but I have a 2017 with 239k that runs amazing, and doesn't burn/leak oil over a 5k oil change interval.
Speaking of oil change intervals, I think the extended intervals cause more problems than they're worth. Most people don't check the level between oil changes, which causes a lot of wear on the components like the timing chain. I looked at a 2016 Chevy Equinox a few weeks ago, and had a hard time pulling the dipstick out of the tube, I seriously wonder if it was ever used. The CarFax showed regular oil changes every 5k, but there was no oil on the dipstick and sludge was stuck to the bottom of the dipstick. I stick to 5k oil changes for most of our daily drivers, and do 3k on our Saab and Rav4 since they see less mileage. I get that manufacturers didn't want to pay for frequent oil changes while under their "maintenance included" offers, but if no one checks the oil between 10k intervals, then IMHO it's too long. All this makes buying a used vehicle that much more difficult. Now I want to see regular changes every 5k or less, regardless of what the manufacturer said. And in the case of that poor Equinox, even the 5k interval wasn't enough.
People keep mentioning BMW rod bearings as a maintenance interval required by the manufacturer. I am 99% that is not the case in any BMW. Not aware of any BMW literature outlining a rod bearing replacement timing.
I know it is a known potential failure point and many shops/folks recommend preventatively replacing them to prevent catastrophic outcomes, just wanted to clarify. Use case, oil change interval, and oil testing results all have dramatic effect on these engines, many/MANY s54s walking around on original bearings with 200k miles. Not that they are toyotas......
Lifetime working on my personal BMWs, cursing maintenance many times in my life, but from a reliability standpoint I consider them solid (never left me stranded). If I wanted a car that didn't need copious amounts of preventative maintenance I wouldn't buy any German car :-).
I will preface this by saying I am both a Honda and a BMW (pre 2006 or so) fanboy.
Tom1200 said:The folks at Honda seem to have no problem making motors that rev that high without issue.
The Honda S2000 suffers from the rod bearing problem as well, as it does from timing chain tensioners failing and valve retainers cracking. It also has a very short valve adjustment intervals ... and if you do not follow them, especially in the drive by wire cars, you will have burnt valves.
I drive all my cars VERY hard, I also do all my maintenance on time.
I have 60k miles on my S2000. I do valve adjustments and check the retainers, listen for the tct noise. Otherwise I drive and enjoy.
I have a 2004 M3 with the 8000 rpm redline. I tracked it and I opened it at 99k miles ... the bearings needed to be changed. I changed them and moved on (as in kept driving it). No cracked rear subframe, never touched the Vanos and my SMG system works fine. I am now at 165k miles. I drive it and enjoy.
I have a 2009 M3 with an even higher redline and 113k miles, never opened it. I changed one throttle body motor mechanism, it was $300. It drives fine.
My point is dont believe all you hear on the internet. Its mostly bs by people that either do not own the car or do not do their own maintenance and listen to people that profit from their car having "issues".
If I would go by what "I thought" to be an indestructible car, the coachroach of cars ... I would go and buy a Nissan Altima tomorrow ... they always look like crap and driven by people that never put a dime in them and they are everywhere still being driven.
Go drive what you like and makes you happy and don't worry about what people say or what people drive.
Tom1200 said:In reply to dean1484 :
Now as far as my universe goes; you're welcome here anytime, it's a happy place full of cheap and sturdy fun cars. You will have to do an occasionally oil change though.LOL
Load on the rods (and the rod bearings) goes up exponentially with RPM. I forget exactly what exponent, but it ain't 1 :) I think it's 2. So the difference between 7000 rpm and 8000 rpm is significant from a rod bearing's point of view.
I used to have a high RPM bored and stroked Miata engine that used very light pistons. I ran it to 8000 rpm regularly on track and always fed it good oil. It also ran slightly higher oil pressure than usual. We pulled the engine with roughly 6000 miles on it and took a peek at the rod bearings because it was easy. Yowza, time to change those puppies out. Meanwhile, those bearings in a stock motor with a stock 7000 rpm redline will last almost forever.
The S54 rod bearing nervousness has also leaked over into the S62 (E39 M5 V8 engine) community, despite a lower redline and a very different crankshaft design.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
As we are on the subject of RPMs.....
My Datsun 1200 gets revved to 8200 RPM, the rod bearing will go forever but the piston rings not so much.
Whenever I'm building a new engine the machine shop will ask why the hell is the bottom end so beefy on such a low powered car. The stock rods and crank can be used up to 9000 RPM.
In reply to Tom1200 :
How many miles are on that Datsun engine?
And why do you need to build a new engine if it lasts forever? 😛
I said this in a previous post but this is such a great place; it's nice to here actual real world experience.
Now on that note my 2011 Outback is at 150K and thus far it's been trouble free (knock wood). I while back I thought I'd popped a head gasket but it turned out I failed to get all of the air out of the system.
What's ironic about all of this is that I love open wheel / single seat race cars...............I buy them, race them for several years and then remember I don't enjoy the maintenance intervals so I sell them. Fortunately for me I've told the wife I would stay out of them after selling the last one.
Slippery said:In reply to Tom1200 :
How many miles are on that Datsun engine?
And why do you need to build a new engine if it lasts forever? 😛
At the level I currently tune the 1200cc engines the rings will do about 10 seasons. The 1500cc engine would only do about 5 seasons due to the rings used.
When I first started racing the car we put a twin carb JDM A12GX motor in the car which had 32K on it. The motor was in the car from untouched 1991 until 2014.
I ran a 1500cc engine from 2015 to 2019.
In 2019 I put the A12 motor back in due to some rules changes. The motor needed to be re rung so I put some fresh bearings in it. The old ones were still within spec but I had fresh bearings so I figured why not.
If I had to guess I'd say there was 75-80K on the motor...............so, yes it fails my 100K mark.
In reply to Tom1200 :
TIL, while looking up the specs of that A12GX, that the Nissan E engine used in the B12 chassis Sentras was an A engine with an OHC head. Neat.
The B12 that I had was a later one with the GA16i engine, but I nearly bought an '87 hatchback that needed a clutch, in 1996ish.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The E15 head will bolt on to the A series block but there is a good bit of work in getting it to run.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Is the OHC head actually better, though? Could one put an A head on an E block?
Although given that Nissan saw fit to keep chugging out A engines for forklifts, but the last E engines were sold about 35 years ago, in eminently disposable cars, it seems kind of a silly idea.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Is the OHC head actually better, though? Could one put an A head on an E block?
Although given that Nissan saw fit to keep chugging out A engines for forklifts, but the last E engines were sold about 35 years ago, in eminently disposable cars, it seems kind of a silly idea.
Yes it's worth about 15hp over the A-series head. The E15ET head is a cross flow.
This is what the D-sports racers were doing before they went to motorcycle engines.
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