In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks! Yeah I'm not terribly worried about power to weight, or even weight particularly much at all anymore (i've been disabused of the notion), but rather size and the effect that weight has on consumables costs, mainly tires and brakes (and gas I suppose).
Shame though, you'd hope the much larger and sophisticated bimmer would have a much better weight/power than the lightweight sportscar FRS instead of a very small advantage- another reason to like the FRS. I'm just furious at toyota for not giving it a toyota engine and associated reliability. Would've been a much better car with a 2ar or similar. Damn subaru's inability to build engines that don't explode.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
Ohhhhh Ok, thank you for that explanation. I think this e90 might be the answer. Not 100% sure yet but being as cheap and mechanically clean as it is, and a decent, if larger platform, I think it will be a good first car. Thought I can't lose the idea that, if I'm buying an n54 bimmer, the e82. Then again sticks are unicorns on that chassis. But the fact that it is mechanically good and a trustworthy seller (GRM'er) makes up for a lot.
Airbags aren't the only things about newer cars, it's a far better crash structure. All the airbags in the world won't do E36 M3 if the car folds like a tin can.
Yes, humans can threshold brake better than ABS, assuming they actually know how to do it. I demonstrate it all the time
Evanuel9 said:
Agreed on those priorities, but honestly, and call me an idiot teen, i'm not too worried about extra safety features like side airbags. Parents have mandated the existence of airbags, so as long as I meet that requirement I'm good. Definitely agree on ABS though - that is one electronic nanny I believe in. Humans can't threshhold brake better than ABS
While this is certainly true of modern ABS, there were some really atrocious implementations in the early 90s. I don't know how much I'd trust the ABS on an E36, for example.
I had a 6spd E82 for a good while. Yeah, I liked it a bit better than my E90 but we're really splitting hairs. They drive almost identical, on the street and track.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
I'm not intending to crash :D. In all seriousness yeah, as an engineering nerd I've done quite a bit of research into crash structures, crumples zones, and force dampingl. I totally get why modern cars are better, I just don't prioritize the safety component as much (teenage risk taking lets call it).
Ok so educate me. I am sort of into motorcycles and fortnine on youtube did a great video on why ABS beats humans almost every time. It was pretty convincing. Aren't computers faster?
Evanuel9 said:
Shame though, you'd hope the much larger and sophisticated bimmer would have a much better weight/power than the lightweight sportscar FRS instead of a very small advantage- another reason to like the FRS. I'm just furious at toyota for not giving it a toyota engine and associated reliability. Would've been a much better car with a 2ar or similar. Damn subaru's inability to build engines that don't explode.
The 330 was the low end E90. People who wanted speed bought a 335 or an M3.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Fair enough, 90s computers were atrocious in comparison to today.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
Well that's good to hear. I do like small cars better but if they're that close I'll take the GRM seller over some rando on facebook
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Really? i thought it was the pretty mid-pack
Evanuel9 said:
Really? i thought it was the pretty mid-pack
Mid-pack globally, but here in the US we didn't get most of the really low end versions. I think there was a 328 or 325 (or maybe both in different years), but the 250 hp out of the 330 was pretty small compared to the 335 (rated at 306, but that was low for marketing reasons -- it actually made a lot more than that) and 420 (I think) out of the V8 in the M3.
The 328i is the base model but by far the one you want. The 335i is troublesome.
ABS squeezes and releases the brakes over and over (at a very basic level). Every time it lets go, you aren't braking. When you threshold brake properly you are at 100% of the tire capacity 100% of the time. You will stop quicker. What ABS can do better is squeeze individual brakes and help keep the car pointed straight...and not require the driver to know how to threshold brake properly. On a slippery road, threshold braking is extremely difficult. On a dry surface I demonstrate to guests all the time how threshold braking actually stops quicker.
As far as ABS vs human -- on a dry, flat, smooth track, braking in a straight line with a perfectly-calibrated brake bias, a skilled human will come out a little bit ahead of a modern ABS computer. Change any of those (a little bit of water or some bumps, for example) and the computer will win, even if only because it can control all four wheels independently while the human only has one brake pedal.
Formula one drivers are the best in the world and you regularly see them locking up individual wheels when they're pushing hard.
Evanuel9 said:
Or I decide to financially suicide myself and get a gtv6. LOL. Not actually considering it but it was too cool not to share
That is clearly the definition of "a car that will look good in your driveway" because for most people, I suspect they will never get it to a point of actually driving.
Here's a car that you certainly don't need, but someone should! 2005 BMW 545i, V8 w/ 6 speed manual and 93k miles @ $9.8k. Black with Cinnamon
https://www.facebook.com/share/RsMwoiyjz1yuD948/?mibextid=kL3p88
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
Yep, the 335i was twin turbo - neat but german complexity. THe 330i, IIRC, is just a 3 liter N54
I did not know that ABS works like that - I assumed it added and reduced pressure to meet the threshold. it's basically PWM but for brakes. Neat!
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Right, that was my understanding as well
In reply to John Welsh :
b-b-b-but the owner says it runs and drives!!! Lol
honestly, never cared for the 5 series. Luxo barges, even with power, never interested me. love the spec though and the v8 is great!
Evanuel9 said:
I did not know that ABS works like that - I assumed it added and reduced pressure to meet the threshold. it's basically PWM but for brakes. Neat!
Early ABS systems were pure PWM. Later ones can modulate pressure to lower-than-pedal-but-not-zero. They are also proactive, they don't wait for the wheel to lock up and then release, they can detect impeding lockup by comparing the speeds of different wheels and looking for one that is turning slower.
335s were fast and easy to make faster because of the turbo. No personal experience, but my understanding is that they are hard to keep together on track.
I haven't read the entire thread, but what about some of the Japanese luxury brands?
Look at a G35 or G37, a Nissan 350/370 in a sportscoat. $5k will get you a decent G35 vs a completely ratted out 350z.
A Lexus is300, Acura RSX, etc? Toyota and Honda reliability, sporting chassis with amenities so it's looked over by a lot of the stance bros.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:
The FiST is not a rollover risk on the road. I haven't autoxd it but I don't see it likely to roll over there either. I just think it's a bad idea because you can't afford a good one.
Just for fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju37Kt94dkE
https://youtu.be/mtS3-uSTx4c?si=jbHmy0EKd_-0PhIJ&t=45
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/07/barks-bites-fist-rollover-risk-people-dont-want-know/
But I agree with your sentiment that its not the only reason its a bad idea.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:
A 3300lb car like an E90 is going to use more consumables, but I don't think it would be enough to be a huge concern unless you track it daily. Autox doesn't use a ton of brakes, etc.. You also would be better served to use stock brakes and just sporty tires instead of track tires.
I think you are misunderstanding me. You are referring to a "momentum car". Yes, on a track day you have to do things right to get the best lap time. That's not what I'm thinking about. A car with amazing handling and or tons of power will overcome poor driving techniques and keep the car safe. For example if you turn in early, sticky tires can cover that mistake and let you navigate the corner. If you get into that bad habit it can bite you as you start going faster and faster. You could wind up hurting yourself or worse. An "average" car will start to slide or give you warnings at low speed when you do something wrong, forcing you to learn how to drive properly (and correct if you make a mistake) before you can go faster. As an instructor, nothing is more terrifying to me than a student with a new C8 (as an example) with no experience).
This. When I first started tracking my '98 SVT Cobra I had Toyo T-1S's and then later the T-1R's and they could handle some abuse. They were so good they let me get away with a lot of mistakes and other bad habits. Luckily I recognized this and switched over to Sumitomo HTR-Z's or something. AMAZING tire to get started in HPDE's with because they had a very gradual breakaway characteristic where they would make a lot of noise and gradually start to slide laterally, allowing to reel the car in and slow down for the turns so I wasn't overdriving them. GREAT tire for feedback. There's a LOT that goes into making your time on the track fun and educational. First and foremost find a SAFE car then just learn how to drive. It's not rocket science. I recommended the E90 because it's got a great platform for fun everyday driving and also a lot of potential for track use, whether it be autox or DE's and also a lot of aftermarket support and knowledge.
All I can say is you still have a LOT of learning and experience to get through, don't overthink it. Have fun. I've daily driven a lot of cars I shouldn't have and made decisions I shouldn't have and did mods I shouldn't have. The best thing you can do is LEARN from your mistakes and improve in everything you do moving forward, automotive or otherwise. 👍🏻
Snrub
Dork
3/16/24 10:47 p.m.
What about a Mazda 3 or even Mazdaspeed 3? The first/second gen were generally considered more fun than the 8th Gen civic.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Interesting - I haven't gotten much into the electronics of modern cars (because I don't like them) but that is really cool.
In reply to WonkoTheSane :
Originally considered a g35, and is300 but discounted them on account of size, weight, and mpg. But now that I'm considering a 330i they might be a decent option. However, I am mostly considering the 330i because it's a GRM seller and pretty cheap.
RSX doesn't really do it for me compared to the 8th gen SI
In reply to chknhwk :
Thank you - I think tire choice will probably be important - -I'm a big believer in proper tires.
I do want to learn - I just want to have tons of fun doing it
