In reply to ManhattanM (fka NY535iManual) :
Truly the most annoying part of driving a momentum car, especially on tight tracks. I've spent laps setting up a pass on a car because they drive in the middle of the track through the turns. Then I end up having to do some shiny happy personry getting around them in a pick or a late brake attempt. There is a certain Lemons team in the south east who has brought many cars 5-10 seconds slower than us but with bad drivers who block.
The problem with the Maita is now the newest versions are slower than they need to be without good reason.
Why shouldn't sporting cars like the FRS or the Maita be able to keep up with a minivan in a straight line. I must believe in 2018 they could do this without adding significant weight.
ronholm said:Why shouldn't sporting cars like the FRS or the Maita be able to keep up with a minivan in a straight line.
Because minivans are what men drive because that is what their wives allow them to.
This is the exact reason why I extensively modified a Dodge van. Commissioner's Wife said no "hot rods", van isn't a hot rod, so give it all the power. I seem to recall Keith Tanner saying one of FM's craziest builds was because the perpetrator's wife said "no sportbikes".
In reply to Knurled. :
I had a 1990 Caravan which started life as a Turbo 5spd van which I transplanted a 16v Masi TC setup into. I understand what you are saying. The Van also had antlers and a Red nose..... I still think a maita should be able to outrun a basic van.
And what better statement of manhood than the need for a van to carry all of your offspring?
I have no problem leaving 99.99% of vehicles (minivans included) in the dust in my stock FR-S. Most people drive like they're on heavy tranquilizers. Maybe it's because I'm old, but I think the 200 hp twins are plenty fast. The MR2 Turbo had 200 hp and everyone thought it was a rocket ship (I know, 25 years ago).
ronholm said:
The problem with the Maita is now the newest versions are slower than they need to be without good reason.
Why shouldn't sporting cars like the FRS or the Maita be able to keep up with a minivan in a straight line. I must believe in 2018 they could do this without adding significant weight.
You say that - but you've never looked at what Mazda did to keep the weight down in the Miata. More power means more weight through the entire car. Even the current Miata went a little too far in that direction, as we're seeing the transmissions suffer from the "big" 2.0 demanded by the US market. Heck, just look at the weight difference between a Miata and the S2000. Remember that these are $25,000 cars, so exotic materials aren't really on offer. Even in 2018, you have to save weight with good old careful engineering.
Meanwhile, you can easily just jam a bigger engine in the minivan because weight and handling aren't major performance goals for the engineering team, and it has to have a motor that can handle max GVWR. This means a lot of excess power when it's empty.
And, just checking - 0-60 of a 2018 Odyssey is 6.6 seconds. 0-60 of the current Miata is 6.1 (both from Car and Driver, because different sources use different testing methodologies). So the minivan is actually slower. 
Isn’t a 4.10 gear ratio doable? I think for mostly around town driving, that’d wake up the 0-60 feeling (and reality). No?
It ain't a dragster . But I am willing to wager that I can make it to a point 300 miles away and get back faster than most "FAST" cars
pilotbraden said:It ain't a dragster . But I am willing to wager that I can make it to a point 300 miles away and get back faster than most "FAST" cars
As long as you hit the “Avoid Highways” option on your GPS.
parker said:I have no problem leaving 99.99% of vehicles (minivans included) in the dust in my stock FR-S. Most people drive like they're on heavy tranquilizers.
But what does that have to do with how fast or slow your car is? That's more about the person behind the wheel, not the car. Besides, the FR-S is significantly quicker than an NA Miata.
I know my NA with a modest autocross prep wasn’t a rocket ship but through second gear it was FAR faster than 8.8-9 seconds to 60. To 55 (top of second) i’d Taken both an RX-8 and a 350Z (and yes both were trying). A 4.3 torsen rear end helped and basic bolt ons for the engine. Some weight reduction around the edges. So while a 70 mph roll on the interstate lacked oomph, leaving the line quick was never it’s problem.
(97 1.8 car)
ebonyandivory said:Isn’t a 4.10 gear ratio doable? I think for mostly around town driving, that’d wake up the 0-60 feeling (and reality). No?
They actually feel a bit faster with the 3.90 swap, not because they're actually faster but because it's less shifting.
parker said:I have no problem leaving 99.99% of vehicles (minivans included) in the dust in my stock FR-S. Most people drive like they're on heavy tranquilizers. Maybe it's because I'm old, but I think the 200 hp twins are plenty fast. The MR2 Turbo had 200 hp and everyone thought it was a rocket ship (I know, 25 years ago).
Nope it's slow. I just traded my BRZ for my 135i. I could put the DCT in manual mode, short shift at 3500rpm and still leave the twins behind. That's the glory of having 300 torques from 1300 rpm.
But then again, my first on track experience was on two wheels. In 2005, my R6 put down ~110whp..........or more than the 1.6 Miata I tracked years later on. So to me, most cars feel pretty slow.
The great irony of this debate- the "slow" miata is *still* the Answer.
And it's the Answer for many reasons. Enough to pretty much ignore the "slow" issue.
alfadriver said:The great irony of this debate- the "slow" miata is *still* the Answer.
And it's the Answer for many reasons. Enough to pretty much ignore the "slow" issue.
I agree for the street. However as a race car it lacks a lot. The cost of a really competitive Miata Race car is high enough that other faster cars should be considered.
Someone has listed a C5 Corvette here with seriously stout racing improvements for $10,000 It wouldn’t be hard to spend that much on a really competitive Miata that isn’t 1/2 as fast.
I understand, Miata is the EZ button and well it’s not too fast. More than a few get comfort from that.
In reply to frenchyd :
Lacking speed is very relative. Relative to a Vette, perhaps. Relative to the cars it actually races against, where is it that slow? It's such a popular race car that it's has it's own group to run with.
A C5 vette is slow vs. a C6. And since Miatas and Vettes don't run in the same class, why are you comparing the two.
A c5 is slow vs a Ford GT, too. Or any P car.
If you want a really fast, fast car- few are going to make anyone happy. Fun per $$ is far more important to me.
Besides, it still matters who you race against- even my Alfa was faster than most Vettes we raced against when going to CCM autocrosses. And I know with 100% certainty that an equally prepared Miata to my Alfa, especially the total investment, is considerably faster than my car.
IMHO, power does a great job of covering bad driving.
I will agree with you there Alfa fast does not necessarily mean engaging, or aiding you to develop as a driver. And there are no trophies for HPDE/track days. Miata's are slow but that really isn't the problem, the problem is that power allows someone who is a worse driver to make themselves more of a blocker on the race track
I feel like for most people, there's a threshold where it goes from "I really want more power in this" to "more power might be nice sometimes, but I'm fine with it as-is". And for a lot of people, the Miata falls into the first category. Now, give a box truck the same power / weight ratio and it'll probably fall into the second category.
frenchyd said:alfadriver said:The great irony of this debate- the "slow" miata is *still* the Answer.
And it's the Answer for many reasons. Enough to pretty much ignore the "slow" issue.
I agree for the street. However as a race car it lacks a lot. The cost of a really competitive Miata Race car is high enough that other faster cars should be considered.
Someone has listed a C5 Corvette here with seriously stout racing improvements for $10,000 It wouldn’t be hard to spend that much on a really competitive Miata that isn’t 1/2 as fast.
I understand, Miata is the EZ button and well it’s not too fast. More than a few get comfort from that.
Cost of the car is not the only thing. The cost to run it is a big impact as well. Kind of like with expensive cars, "There is a difference between being able to buy it, and being able to afford it."
The C5 is going to drink a lot more gas, go through more tires and brakes (and those tires and brakes are MUCH more expensive than a Miata).
Just look up a set of RComps for a Miata vs the same set for the C5.
How much are you willing to spend to buy, maintain, and own? That's all there is to it. Miata fits my bill and it's fun as hell.
ebonyandivory said:Isn’t a 4.10 gear ratio doable? I think for mostly around town driving, that’d wake up the 0-60 feeling (and reality). No?
Depends. What are we talking about? There are four generations that came with at least five different rear end ratios over the years. 4.10 was the standard rear ratio from 1994-97 and for the 2004-5 6-speed cars. I think it might have been under the NC as well. The ND would probably not respond well to a 4.1 unless you like really, really close ratio gearsets. You'd have to hit 4th gear to make a 0-60 run
pilotbraden said:It ain't a dragster . But I am willing to wager that I can make it to a point 300 miles away and get back faster than most "FAST" cars
Aaactually - what you just described is a rally, like the Targa Newfoundland. And unfortunately, in my experience, the ability to blast out of a corner is more important than the ability to carry speed through a corner in that case because pretty much any road is more straight than corner. With the four cylinder, I was competing with things like Honda Civics. With the V8, I was outrunning Corvettes. So don't wager TOO much on that open road race.
z31maniac said:frenchyd said:alfadriver said:The great irony of this debate- the "slow" miata is *still* the Answer.
And it's the Answer for many reasons. Enough to pretty much ignore the "slow" issue.
I agree for the street. However as a race car it lacks a lot. The cost of a really competitive Miata Race car is high enough that other faster cars should be considered.
Someone has listed a C5 Corvette here with seriously stout racing improvements for $10,000 It wouldn’t be hard to spend that much on a really competitive Miata that isn’t 1/2 as fast.
I understand, Miata is the EZ button and well it’s not too fast. More than a few get comfort from that.
Cost of the car is not the only thing. The cost to run it is a big impact as well. Kind of like with expensive cars, "There is a difference between being able to buy it, and being able to afford it."
The C5 is going to drink a lot more gas, go through more tires and brakes (and those tires and brakes are MUCH more expensive than a Miata).Just look up a set of RComps for a Miata vs the same set for the C5.
While you may be correct, it is not a given or absolute. A faster car may be cheaper to run. Brakes may last longer. Or the pads designed for qualifying replaced by pro teams. Tires may be available cheaper, ( example, tires used for qualifying only are often replaced on pro teams and available under $100 each.) lower cost fuel may be used (E85) Engines may be more durable etc.
Slightly used racing stuff just isn’t as readily available for Miata’s
alfadriver said:In reply to frenchyd :
Lacking speed is very relative. Relative to a Vette, perhaps. Relative to the cars it actually races against, where is it that slow? It's such a popular race car that it's has it's own group to run with.
A C5 vette is slow vs. a C6. And since Miatas and Vettes don't run in the same class, why are you comparing the two.
A c5 is slow vs a Ford GT, too. Or any P car.
If you want a really fast, fast car- few are going to make anyone happy. Fun per $$ is far more important to me.
Besides, it still matters who you race against- even my Alfa was faster than most Vettes we raced against when going to CCM autocrosses. And I know with 100% certainty that an equally prepared Miata to my Alfa, especially the total investment, is considerably faster than my car.
IMHO, power does a great job of covering bad driving.
More than a few drivers started out in low powered momentum cars learned the skill and progressed to faster cars.
Yes some guys in fast car are poor drivers. Then again so are some guys in slower cars.
When I raced my BP Corvette I simply didn’t have enough car to be competitive. However there were some lower class cars that provided me with a real race.
I imagine it’s the same with Miata’s A well prepared well driven one may be unbeatable but there is usually someone to dice with.
NermalSnert said:How much are you willing to spend to buy, maintain, and own? That's all there is to it. Miata fits my bill and it's fun as hell.
Racing to me is fun and no matter I can always find someone to race with.
Miata’s are so well developed that just a little faster one will cost a lot. Formula V and Formula Ford became that. Supposedly low cost entry level race cars. That as they got developed each tiny bit of a added speed cost more and more.
How much is the car? How much the driver? To stand on the top step of the podium?
If a significant portion of that success is the driver, remember that skill was developed at a cost too!
Look st the total cost of getting to the top step of the Miata group.
What other choices are available for that sort of money?
frenchyd said:z31maniac said:frenchyd said:alfadriver said:The great irony of this debate- the "slow" miata is *still* the Answer.
And it's the Answer for many reasons. Enough to pretty much ignore the "slow" issue.
I agree for the street. However as a race car it lacks a lot. The cost of a really competitive Miata Race car is high enough that other faster cars should be considered.
Someone has listed a C5 Corvette here with seriously stout racing improvements for $10,000 It wouldn’t be hard to spend that much on a really competitive Miata that isn’t 1/2 as fast.
I understand, Miata is the EZ button and well it’s not too fast. More than a few get comfort from that.
Cost of the car is not the only thing. The cost to run it is a big impact as well. Kind of like with expensive cars, "There is a difference between being able to buy it, and being able to afford it."
The C5 is going to drink a lot more gas, go through more tires and brakes (and those tires and brakes are MUCH more expensive than a Miata).Just look up a set of RComps for a Miata vs the same set for the C5.
While you may be correct, it is not a given or absolute. A faster car may be cheaper to run. Brakes may last longer. Or the pads designed for qualifying replaced by pro teams. Tires may be available cheaper, ( example, tires used for qualifying only are often replaced on pro teams and available under $100 each.) lower cost fuel may be used (E85) Engines may be more durable etc.
Slightly used racing stuff just isn’t as readily available for Miata’s
You're making apples to oranges comparisons.
Let's take your E85 example. Sure it's cheaper, but you have to run more fuel, approx 30% more. If your stock fuel system can't handle it, then your upgrading injectors, possibly the pump and going to likely spring for new engine management to control the larger injectors. Sure some cars you may be able to half-ass raising the fuel pressure to compensate..........but let's assume doing things properly.
If you compare like for like, A C5 is going to use more 91 octane than a Miata over the course of the day. A new set of tires for the C5 is going to cost substantially more than for a Miata.
New pads absolutely cost more: A quick google search shows you can buy front and rear sets of Hawk DTC60 pads for a Miata, for less than just the fronts on the C5.
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