'You should have bought a better car'

Matt Farah from The Smoking Tire was a recent guest on the Everyday Driver podcast. I found the whole episode pretty interesting, but the comments that struck me most were in the ‘what car should I buy’ segment:

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Matt: “Why is a second-hand BRZ on this guy’s list if he’s already owned an FRS and has $50 Grand to spend. I don’t follow this dude’s logic at all, bro.”

Todd: “I think what’s happening there is that he’s thinking, ‘Okay, I’m going to buy one for cheap and throw a bunch of parts at it…’”

Matt: “No! That’s not the answer!”

Todd: “…Which I don’t think is the answer here at all. And I’m an owner that loves the car. But we talk a lot about how there is a tipping point where I feel like now you’ve just spent enough that you should have bought a better car.”

Matt: “Exactly. You should never modify yourself out of class. That’s a big mistake. I see a lot of modding out of class in L.A. I can’t tell you the number of $150,000 M4’s I’ve driven. And you know what’s better than a $150,000 M4? Anything that costs $150,000 brand new. Right?”

Todd: “I totally agree with you. Totally agree with you. We say variations of that all the time… I say this as an FRS owner that’s done some tuning: I don’t think that’s the answer here at all.”

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Keep in mind that Matt has driven over 400 vehicles for ‘One Take’ video reviews on his YouTube channel; Paul and Todd review dozens of performance cars each year for their podcasts and videos. They each test lots of both stock and modified cars. These guys probably know what they’re talking about.

But ‘buy one for cheap and throw a bunch of parts at it’ is a regular GRM forum mantra. Whether Miatas or Mustangs, BMWs or VWs, Ford Foci or Ford Rangers—hot mods on a low-buck auto is the standard recipe for forum cred.

So where is the tipping point for you? At what point do you think one should just buy a better car?

The moment you think a showroom car is cooler than a car you built yourself for the same money.

It's just a different attitude. But it is also an attitude that makes luxury manufacturers a lot of money.

A big difference I think is GRMers would build a $150,000 M4 for half that. Also GRMers don't tend to take a performance car like the M4 and make it better. You get more return by taking a base model and upgrading it.

nderwater wrote: So where is the tipping point for you? At what point do you think one should just buy a better car?

Never! As a confirmed turd polisher, modding stuff is the whole point for me. Perhaps more than driving the darned thing. Admittedly, I'm nowhere the $150K buy in those guys are talking about. I think that argument makes financial sense, but as far as the hobbyist goes...nah.

I think there's a difference of buying say a new mustang, then throwing $30k of Saleen or rouse parts at it vs buying a new z06. Compared to hey I think I want a BMW Bavaria, but with an m5 engine. I think I'll make one.

Modding is the best part. Especially if you can make something like a miata a true supercar killer.

These people with 150k m4s aren't doing the work either. You can buy a lot of labor for that coin.

dropping $50k into a car that isn't for competition preparation fitting to class rules, is foolish and not GRM-like at all. Farah also happens to love the LS powered ND. It's all dependent on the end result of chassis, power output, delivery and feel.

There is a different mentality that GRM'ers have I think.

When we dump money into a "turd", maybe there is a racing class or competition we want to enter that vehicle in. You can't buy something similar for that amount of money.

There's also the case of having a dream you want to satisfy. It is exactly that Bavaria example with the M5 engine, you can't just buy a new car with that same feeling of satisfaction knowing that what you have is unique and built with blood, sweat and tears.

I kind of get this. I am looking at a car later this week that is not cheap. However I could build the equivalent performanc car and probably for less money. However after test driving it I realized that to make a car with the fit and finish and refinement it would cost me as much or more and would probably still not be as nice a place to be as compared to what I will probably be purchasing. So ya I get the concept of what they are saying.

This does not change my like for projects. I have two in the works that have no real purpose other than they will be different and fun both to build and drive.

I think you can play on both sides of the fence in this case with out being hypocritical.

About six months ago I was ready to take my lumps on the Saab wagon and move on but my other half really loves the car and was determined to keep fixing it. Financially, it was a terrible decision, but it was the right one for us. if it had been a Chevy it would be long gone. Depends on the car and what it does for you, I think.

I would say that that guy lacks passion. Would we remember Burt Munro if he ditched his 1920 Scout for a better bike? Would he have enjoyed is as much?

It's all about return on investment. He's not talking about spending $2500 fixing up an old Miata.

I've had this conversation in my head lots of time while browsing craigslist. I'll think of a car I wanted to buy when I was younger with no funds, think about all the stuff I could do to it now with my deeper pockets, but I always come back to "well for that money I could get xxxx". When it comes to street cars it's almost always more cost efficient to buy the best out of the box car you can get for your money bracket, unless you're just stuck on owning a particular make/model car.

Now in the race car/GRM challenge world it's been proven you can beat 50k cars with something under two grand. Would you want to drive it to work everyday? Probably not. Will it last more than a few 1/4 mile runs? Not guaranteed. But you can still say my $2k beat a $50k car down the strip or through the cones.

One needs to define one's goal. Matt Farrah's comments imply to me that he doesn't enjoy wrenching on and building a car -- he wants to enjoy driving it. There's nothing wrong with that, and if that's your goal then buying a car is almost certainly cheaper than building one.

I look at it a different way. I've spent a lot of money on my Miata -- I dunno exactly how much, but I bought the car for ~ $30K out the door (brand new in 1998), and it's had 2 built motors, 3 turbo kits, and 3 different ECUs over the last 19 years. I DIYed almost all of the labor (pretty much everything except machining and safety-critical fabrication), but if I'd paid someone to deliver the car to me like this I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a total of around the cost of a 2017 Porsche.

Would Matt Farrah like my Miata better than a brand new 911? I doubt it. Do I regret doing that and wish I'd bought a C2S instead? Absolutely not. It's a hobby, I had fun doing it, and I learned a ton of stuff along the way. The knowledge and experience gained are the most valuable parts (to me), more so than simply owning a fast car.

dculberson wrote: It's all about return on investment. He's not talking about spending $2500 fixing up an old Miata.

That said, it's not at all unheard of to take a $2500 Miata and throw $2500 worth of suspension on it and a $5000 turbo system and a $750 exhaust and $1500 worth of wheels and tires and on and then big brakes and interior/exterior bits... it's a slippery slope.

dculberson wrote: It's all about return on investment. He's not talking about spending $2500 fixing up an old Miata.

Practically all modified cars are worth less than the sum of their parts. They're typically less reliable, less comfortable, and often the performance suffers too since aftermarket bits tend to be not very well engineered.

A thought I had the other day was that for the price of putting Wilwood brakes on an older Ford (parts only) I could buy a set of Brembos that come with a complete Volvo, and that car will do everything better in every way except for a couple relatively trivial things.

No, it won't have a big block rumble or the awesome looks. It also wouldn't get 8mpg, leak fluids out and rain in, rattle horribly, have atrocious steering, bad drivability, etc.

codrus wrote: I've spent a lot of money on my Miata ... I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a total of around the cost of a 2017 Porsche ... It's a hobby, I had fun doing it, and I learned a ton of stuff along the way. The knowledge and experience gained are the most valuable parts, more so than simply owning a fast car.

Yipes! You're absolutely right about the skill and experience building piece of the puzzle though. It's hard to put a price on that.

Fitzauto wrote: Modding is the MOST FUNpart. Especially if you can make something like a miata a true supercar killer.

Fixed.

I do agree with most here that modding is cooler but agree with him that it's possible to get a better car stock with enough $$. Of course that gets into some $$$ though. I found that a $75,000 F Type Jag will out perform the slightly modified RX8 I used to have and my modded Miata. Even turning and stopping. But the Jag was a lot more than I had invested in both cars. Could have a lot of modded Miata's for what that F Type cost. Found out the same thing when I got to drive a new 918 Boxster in anger. Great car but could modify my Miata to match it and still have $$ left over.

It depends...

Sometimes people want to have an FRS that can beat a Porsche, not just a stock Porsche. That's not a financially logical thing, but neither is owning a Porsche or a modded FRS. Another point to consider is Scene hierarchy-a ridiculously modded FRS makes you the coolest FRS guy and the king of the Fanboys/girls, a stock Porsche just means you drive a rich guys Camry. There are times in life when you need to stand out, modded anything usually stands out more than stock. Another problem is there isn't always a logical upwardly classed equivalent. A Miata isn't very much like a 911. Most of the edges go away the higher grade car you buy. That can really kill certain parts of the appeal.

I think we are missing the point. To put it in GRM perspective let's say I buy a $2000 miata, then throw a turbo and suspension on it. For similar total money i could buy a corvette that is faster out of the box. It's a different class of car.

nderwater wrote:

codrus wrote: I've spent a lot of money on my Miata ... I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a total of around the cost of a 2017 Porsche ... It's a hobby, I had fun doing it, and I learned a ton of stuff along the way. The knowledge and experience gained are the most valuable parts, more so than simply owning a fast car.

Yipes! You're absolutely right about the skill and experience building piece of the puzzle though. It's hard to put a price on that.

Keep in mind that this has basically been my only project car for almost 20 years. :)

In reply to nderwater:

"So where is the tipping point for you? At what point do you think one should just buy a better car?"

Rarely for me. I don't think I've ever bought a car that I didn't mess with, with the exception of totally utilitarian people haulers....which even get my eye after a while. The tipping point I guess would be if I lose interest in the vehicle and think it should go to a better home.

Hard to say. For me, it's nickel and diming that jacks the price up.

For what I have into my ugly little blue miata, I could have paid cash for a new(ish) BRZ. And I haven't started the turbo system yet. But instead of laying out 20k at once, it started with a 5k buy in and snowballed a little at a time.

I guess if I could afford to go buy something just right out of the box I might, but in part I like modding, and in part I like things a certain way. I've yet to see a manufacturer check all the right boxes for me, so sure a shiny new car would be great, but waiting for the warranty to expire to start playing with it and making it my own would drive me insane.

pimpm3 wrote: I think we are missing the point. To put it in GRM perspective let's say I buy a $2000 miata, then throw a turbo and suspension on it. For similar total money i could buy a corvette that is faster out of the box. It's a different class of car.

Yes, you are exactly right.

2k Miata + 8k of parts vs 10k c5 Vette.

I'll bet it's really close performance-wise. Just comes down to which do you think is cooler?

No wrong answer. Even one person can answer on both sides of the coin in different cases.