KyAllroad wrote:
...so maybe addressing the real problems which lead people to end one another's lives for little to no reason would be a more useful way to spend our time.
Lack of resources seems like a good place to start. When someone has nothing to lose they have little thought of consequences. But give that person an education and a mortgage and I bet he'll think twice before poppin' a cap in someone who "looked at him disrespectfully".
Trouble is that one is even harder to address, requires things like ending "war on drugs" related police aggression, and poverty in general. People seem to forget things like social welfare programs and minimum wage compete with crime, you can currently make a lot more money slinging dope than working at McDonalds. Change that, preferably by both making drugs cheaper/more legal and income higher, and the already perpetually dropping violent crime rate will drop faster.
Is it sad that these numbers are inline with what has happened for at least 3 years straight? That's why it's not big news. The 4th and multiple killings are an unfortunate chicagoland gang tradition.
It's not IL with the horrible gun laws, it's chicago city proper. That's why I had my address at the family land outside of chicago when I lived there and not my Condo in the city.
yamaha
MegaDork
7/6/15 3:20 p.m.
The saddest part is that the communities plagued by gang violence are under the control of the gangs themselves.
The youngest victim appears to have happened to be in the path of a bullet meant for the father.....who is conveniently not cooperating with police.
Meh, as socialist as I am, we'd do more to curb inner city gun violence by banning rap music and ignoring people like 50Cent than we would banning guns. Pop culture has idolized "hard" rappers for years, and thankfully I think that is changing. I'm so glad people like Eminem, DMX and 50Cent aren't common on the airway.
Even as far back as the mob era or gangsters of the 30's and 40's, popular culture idolized the violence of our cities.
I think we'd do better for our urban youth to provide them with more options besides false ideas of musical careers or obsessions with sports.
If gun control laws should target anyone, it should be the random teenager who wants to shoot up his school or the local theater because he's feeling suicidal. Unfortunately that is a far more complicated issue.
In reply to PHeller:
I'd been thinking that the romantisizing of thug culture is largely to blame. You beat me to it.
I really doubt rap music has much to do with the actual gang problem. I am pretty sure it does have a lot to do with people pretending to be gangsters and likely helps actual gangsters feel a bit better about themselves, but creating them? I find that unlikely.
Most gangsters seem to be motivated (much like religious extremists) by a combination of peer pressure and (probably more importantly) nothing better to do. In both cases education and opportunity (not that that would be easy) would likely make most of them disappear.
I used to live there growing up, and this has always been somewhat of a problem. It is exponentially worse now however. The biggest problem by far is the disintegration of the family, followed closely by a very poor education system. Those two go hand in hand. Many of the kids there are raised by one parent, and it is not uncommon for many never to have known their father. You saw some of this 30 years ago. Talking to a few friends still in the area and this is the norm these days unfortunately.
Solving this is not easy however. What you have to do is to restore hope and dignity to those there. I know this is not as PC as saying we need more gun laws, welfare, etc., but those are just tools or bandaids if you will, and not a true solution. Personally, a good first step to me would be to not just hand out welfare, but to offer those that get it to either go back to school (paid by the state, and with paid child care if needed), or to work for their check if able, in a position that can teach them a skill. I know this would not be popular either, and would require more money at first, but you have to break the cycle.
This problem goes so much deeper than simply banning guns. You have to address the true causes, and to most people, its easier to dictate laws from a distance than even have the correct conversation.
T.J.
UltimaDork
7/6/15 7:18 p.m.
In reply to racerdave600:
I agree with your point that welfare as we know it destroys families and doesn't help most of the recipients. So, legalize drugs and radically reform the welfare system - those seem like two ideas that have merit to me. The war on drugs has to be a major cause of fatherless families, but I'm sure there are other causes. The war on poverty turned out to just create a dependent welfare class and it should go away. ( not welfare in general, just welfare as it currently exists)
KyAllroad wrote:
In reply to PHeller:
I'd been thinking that the romantisizing of thug culture is largely to blame. You beat me to it.
Tipper Gore? Where you been since the '80s?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d65BxvSNa2o
BTW, Frank Zappa berkeleying ruled. Watch his speech in that video I linked. Talk about tearing a committee a new arse.
First I was William Shatner. Now I'm Tipper Gore. I think you looove me GPS.
The problem isnt going to be fixed by govt programs or govt money. The problem is the lack of shame. I would be ashamed to say that i have kids that i wont raise or support. I would be ashamed to do something that sends me to prison. I would be ashamed to hurt or kill someone for no damn reason. I would be ashamed to be unemployed when i could and should be working. I would be ashamed if my kids were living that way because I didnt raise them any better than that. Too many people have no sense of shame for the things ive listed.
84FSP
Reader
7/7/15 10:12 a.m.
This is an ongoing violence increase is an issue in a variety of places including my home town of Cincinnati much less Chiraq. In Cincy Shootings are at a 9 year high and 29% higher than 2014 levels. I'm a progun guy so I have moral struggles with some of the firearm availability arguments. The main drivers that seem to change these behaviors are long term and related to education and potential for prosperity. Not sure we can ever hire enough police to resolve the issue with handcuffs.
News report just came out. Last month was the most violent in four years for our fine city. Another news report questioned the avalablity of guns to felons and other violent offenders. It basically comes down to the fact that poeople can buy guns legally and easily sell them to criminals with little paper trail.
Duke
MegaDork
7/7/15 10:38 a.m.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
BTW, Frank Zappa berkeleying ruled. Watch his speech in that video I linked. Talk about tearing a committee a new arse.
I was a senior in college at that time, and had my first exposure to modern cable TV. The 2 days that I am most glad I blew off class to watch TV: seeing the Challenger explosion live, and hearing Zappa tear Tipper and the senate committee apart brick by brick. Both are a big part of my memory.
yamaha
MegaDork
7/7/15 11:02 a.m.
In reply to N Sperlo:
More of the issue is straw purchasers, from interacting with many gang affiliated people while I worked in corrections, the gangs always made sure to have a few guys in their ranks with clean records to purchase new whatever they wanted.
The bigger problem is the DoJ rarely goes after said straw purchasers like they should.
In reply to Dr. Hess:
Thanks for sharing those nuanced, well researched viewpoints, from a subject matter expert.
yamaha wrote:
The bigger problem is the DoJ rarely goes after said straw purchasers like they should.
You put it so much more eloquently.
pres589 wrote:
In reply to Wally:
I don't think anyone has said "we do not want the police" over Stop & Frisk. They want a police force that doesn't, you know, use racial profiling to violate 4th Amendment rights. There's a big difference.
http://wagingnonviolence.org/2015/03/meet-new-group-wants-disarm-displace-nypd/
To create these no-cop zones, Disarm NYPD is teaming up with cop-watcher groups, like Jose LaSalle’s Copwatch Patrol Unit, in order to let the police know that they are being watched whenever they are patrolling communities of color. As the number of people watching the police increases, activists believe they will become more hesitant to abuse their power and even retreat from neighborhoods because they don’t want to be incessantly monitored.
“We’re not doing this just for ourselves,” LaSalle said. “We’re doing this because we want to create an impact on the community and empower the community.”
LaSalle recently finished training about a dozen new cop-watchers to be assigned throughout the city. He and Disarm NYPD also plan on holding more cop-watching training courses in the near future and further increasing their ranks, slowly making it impossible for cops to enter certain areas without a member of the community pointing a camera at them.
In addition, the groups plan on holding more local demonstrations in the communities most affected by police violence and staging small-scale direct actions at local precincts to demand that police leave these neighborhoods. Actions like refusing to serve police while at work, setting up Copwatch information booths across the street from local police stations, and finding alternative ways to resolve conflict without the help of police are also included in the repertoire of tools used to create these no-cop zones.
In reply to Wally:
Interesting. I'll have to read more on these efforts when I have more time. I do think there's some value in discussing a police force without guns or with much reduced numbers of cops carrying at all times.
yamaha
MegaDork
7/7/15 12:30 p.m.
N Sperlo wrote:
yamaha wrote:
The bigger problem is the DoJ rarely goes after said straw purchasers like they should.
You put it so much more eloquently.
Strangely enough, the DoJ and ATF normally only go after FFL's for not catching straw purchasers.....yet when they are caught and sales are declined, nobody prosecutes the straw purchaser.
Its the whole thing we always say, stop with new laws, berkeleying enforce the ones on the books already.
I could see in a city where there are a lot of officers not all of them needing to carry guns, or maybe given tazers instead. I think the telling the police they aren't welcome in crime infested parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx is a bad idea. While there is a very vocal group that feels their neighborhood would be better without police I wonder how many people would be comfortable with their moms and grandmas walking streets that were cop free, especially when these groups look to the area gangs to team up and do the police and governments job.
. During one no-cop zone event, they set up a large banner with the text “If all the gangs in the South Bronx unite, we could…” and asked young Bronxites to write in an end to the sentence. It was well-received by local youth who wrote in many responses that would decrease conflicts amongst neighbors, like “demand well-paid jobs,” “have a successful basketball tournament,” and most importantly, “get the police off our necks.” With the help of cop-watchers and locals, Disarm NYPD hopes to replicate these no-cop zones on a larger scale and even maintain them permanently.
pres589 wrote:
In reply to Dr. Hess:
Thanks for sharing those nuanced, well researched viewpoints, from a subject matter expert.
Your welcome. She is certainly a subject matter expert. Her life was just saved by her legally owned handgun. So sorry you want to have her disarmed.
In reply to Dr. Hess:
If you read the test you quoted, is there any mention of her having a gun? I don't see any. I see redacted swearing and someone trying to put forth this idea that others carrying guns will have no impact on anyone but the person carrying. Which is pretty silly if you think about it.
Wally wrote:
I could see in a city where there are a lot of officers not all of them needing to carry guns, or maybe given tazers instead. I think the telling the police they aren't welcome in crime infested parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx is a bad idea. While there is a very vocal group that feels their neighborhood would be better without police I wonder how many people would be comfortable with their moms and grandmas walking streets that were cop free, especially when these groups look to the area gangs to team up and do the police and governments job.
. During one no-cop zone event, they set up a large banner with the text “If all the gangs in the South Bronx unite, we could…” and asked young Bronxites to write in an end to the sentence. It was well-received by local youth who wrote in many responses that would decrease conflicts amongst neighbors, like “demand well-paid jobs,” “have a successful basketball tournament,” and most importantly, “get the police off our necks.” With the help of cop-watchers and locals, Disarm NYPD hopes to replicate these no-cop zones on a larger scale and even maintain them permanently.
That sounds like something that would deteriorate until Snake Plissken would have to infiltrate and break it up from the inside.