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I will buy at those prices. Good luck.

I'm still confused by the agreement you have with your artists. I'm a big fan of American blues/roots music, and recall the problems many of the artists of the 30s/40s/50s had with the companies distributing their work ("buying songs" with no royalties, etc.). I'd hate to participate in something similar.

OTOH, if you're talking about previously known artists trying to keep costs down by remaining anonymous (perhaps they just want to get their works out?), that might be OK, as long as it's the artists' choice.

That being said, I'd pay that price for that print of the Cosworth V8 cam cover in a heartbeat. If your artists are being compensated properly for their contributions, I wish you well.

friedgreencorrado wrote: I'm still confused by the agreement you have with your artists. I'm a big fan of American blues/roots music, and recall the problems many of the artists of the 30s/40s/50s had with the companies distributing their work ("buying songs" with no royalties, etc.). I'd hate to participate in something similar. OTOH, if you're talking about previously known artists trying to keep costs down by remaining anonymous (perhaps they just want to get their works out?), that might be OK, as long as it's the artists' choice. That being said, I'd pay that price for that print of the Cosworth V8 cam cover in a heartbeat. If your artists are being compensated properly for their contributions, I wish you well.

I think what he is doing is calling someone and saying "I want a painting, in oil on canvas of Rossi on a Yamaha dragging a knee, it should be close in and speed blurred. The detail should be..."

In that case I kinda agree with leaving the artist out except maybe a by-line such as "Original artwork by: xxxxx". The artist knows the deal and can just say "Sorry, not interested". It isn't like commissioning an artist witha blank slate. I liken it to hiring a writer to ghost write a bio. They would not be listed as the author and only be credited by a pre-arranged deal.

Seems that way to me too.

I also notice that he stated that the artist is free to claim credit. It just won't be advertised on the site.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: I'm still confused by the agreement you have with your artists. I'm a big fan of American blues/roots music, and recall the problems many of the artists of the 30s/40s/50s had with the companies distributing their work ("buying songs" with no royalties, etc.). I'd hate to participate in something similar.

I think what he is doing is calling someone and saying "I want a painting, in oil on canvas of Rossi on a Yamaha dragging a knee, it should be close in and speed blurred. The detail should be..."

I think the concerns on behalf of the artists are well founded. But I think comparing it to the exploitation of original American musicians from an era where many of those who were exploited were done so by law before ever a recording shark turned a mic on them is not an apt comparison. If I were canny enough to exploit obviously talented artists not once but repeatedly, then in this thread at the first mention of concern for their compensation and credit I would have backpedaled as fast as the keyboard would allow and told a palatable, unverifiable story that would have assuaged any concerns.

But the truth is that it really does go alot like GPS'er describes. I have a specific subject, point of view, colors, background, level of detail, and all the other little things that I believe would make up the specific painting I am looking for when I commision any piece. Sometimes it takes some iteration to get it where I think it needs to be, sometimes it clearly won't work and I'm sunk for the costs to that point, and sometimes it turns out better than I could have wished which is really a pleasure.

That consistency of look and feel is specifically why I would prefer the pieces to be associated with the logo, they are not entirely artist dependant. And the interesting thing is that, to my initial surprise, not just the artists, but other professionals I have worked with on these, whether scanning, or color correcting, or printing, have been anxious to know "what's the next one going to be?". They're not necessarily 'car people', so it's kind of funny to see that enthusiasm, especially for something so far removed from 'fine art' as a set of velocity stacks on top of a big block in a can am car. If they only could feel that sound shaking their bones...

Without personally knowing me it's tough to know whether this is true, that specifically the artists involved are compensated fairly, and I can only say that the truth I have described is much a more difficult truth than the much easier lie, of which there are many scenarios that could be concocted to sound plausible for the sake of sales. The only people that may know me on this board are people that autocrossed years ago in the Detroit area and would know me for my red V8 Fiero or blue rotary powered Spitfire. Otherwise I work hard at work and then I come home and work harder, and haven't been doing much else.

3Door4G - I looked at your facebook and the sketches look great, I think you're definitely on the right track.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: I'm still confused by the agreement you have with your artists. I'm a big fan of American blues/roots music, and recall the problems many of the artists of the 30s/40s/50s had with the companies distributing their work ("buying songs" with no royalties, etc.). I'd hate to participate in something similar.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I think what he is doing is calling someone and saying "I want a painting, in oil on canvas of Rossi on a Yamaha dragging a knee, it should be close in and speed blurred. The detail should be..."

IMO, that would be something many enthusiasts want. After all, how many racers ask the photographers at an event if there are photos of their cars for sale?

grpb wrote: I think the concerns on behalf of the artists are well founded. But I think comparing it to the exploitation of original American musicians from an era where many of those who were exploited were done so by law before ever a recording shark turned a mic on them is not an apt comparison. If I were canny enough to exploit obviously talented artists not once but repeatedly, then in this thread at the first mention of concern for their compensation and credit I would have backpedaled as fast as the keyboard would allow and told a palatable, unverifiable story that would have assuaged any concerns.

I didn't meant to insult you, I was just trying to explain why I was suspicious, since I didn't quite understand the concept..and also why I didn't automatically jump in at the deep end when I saw the wonderful work done by your artists. I still want that print of the Cosworth.

grpb wrote: But the truth is that it really does go alot like GPS'er describes. I have a specific subject, point of view, colors, background, level of detail, and all the other little things that I believe would make up the specific painting I am looking for when I commision any piece. Sometimes it takes some iteration to get it where I think it needs to be, sometimes it clearly won't work and I'm sunk for the costs to that point, and sometimes it turns out better than I could have wished which is really a pleasure. That consistency of look and feel is specifically why I would prefer the pieces to be associated with the logo, they are not entirely artist dependant. And the interesting thing is that, to my initial surprise, not just the artists, but other professionals I have worked with on these, whether scanning, or color correcting, or printing, have been anxious to know "what's the next one going to be?". They're not necessarily 'car people', so it's kind of funny to see that enthusiasm, especially for something so far removed from 'fine art' as a set of velocity stacks on top of a big block in a can am car. If they only could feel that sound shaking their bones...

I wish I were still working corners in SCCA. I could probably score enough guest passes for you to bring some of them to an event.

grpb wrote: Without personally knowing me it's tough to know whether this is true, that specifically the artists involved are compensated fairly, and I can only say that the truth I have described is much a more difficult truth than the much easier lie, of which there are many scenarios that could be concocted to sound plausible for the sake of sales. The only people that may know me on this board are people that autocrossed years ago in the Detroit area and would know me for my red V8 Fiero or blue rotary powered Spitfire. Otherwise I work hard at work and then I come home and work harder, and haven't been doing much else.

Again, I did not wish to insult you. The explanation you've provided in this post does much more to clarify your intentions to me than your previous posts. Perhaps I originally misunderstood because you're trying something a little different. After you've expanded upon the concept, I can now honestly wish you well. When I have a little extra income again, I will certainly be looking over what you have to offer.

Perhaps the confusion arose from your original introduction:

"I've been doing some artwork that I think would be of interest to the folks here and I was hoping perhaps I could get some feedback on the work, the site, prices, concerns as a potential customer, or anything related. I have lots more original work that I could turn into prints, but the process is costly and I'm not sure if there would be enough interest to justify further investment. "

You've been doing some artwork? Is some of this yours? Why not be upfront that you're merely marketing the work, instead it comes out later: "You're not mis-navigating the site, there IS no mention of the artists, no bios, no flowery quote on their motivations and thoughts on their subject. The prints are intentionally 'signed' with a logo instead of a signature. My hope was that the logo/brand would take the place of a signature, the signal to a potential customer that this is one of 'those' prints."

Fair enough, as you said the artists agreed to these terms, and are being "compensated" accordingly. Personally - I prefer to know whose work I'm admiring - whether it's marketed under a label or through a group or gallery. It's beautiful work - and it would give your label, or group branding, much more cachet to actually celebrate the artists.

grpb - In the interest of full disclosure, are the originals Chinese assembly-line stuff?

friedgreencorrado - none taken, I just didn't think a signature, a person to relate to, would be such an important aspect if the work was compelling and the price low. Years ago I went to dinner after a show with the designer of the Ford GT (he painted a huge mural over the 3 days of the show) and spent quite a bit of time looking through the portfolio he brought with him as he sketched on a napkin something for the pretty waitress that I would certainly have paid money for. There was a piece that really captured me, and the deal 'for me' on a print would have far exceeded the allowable for sale limit on the classifieds on this board. I respectfully declined, but my initial thought was that it wasn't fair, that no piece of paper should cost that much, specially one that I wanted so much. I don't have that print, only the memory of it. And the opposite of that situation was the idea here. Nothing like that piece I couldn't afford, I make no pretense that these prints should even be mentioned in relation to art like that, but something in a similar vein for a fraction of the cost.

Lesley - I appreciate the thoughts and bios are something I am considering. It's not what I envisioned originally but obviously it is something that adds to the pedigree of the prints.

Relative to a personal reference, Scott Lear on the editorial staff at GRM worked with me years ago at Mid Ohio on a story he did. Although he doesn't know me outside of my work, it is relevant because that story was on a (now defunct) series specifically targeting the entry-level, relatively low margin end of the motorsports spectrum, which I was deeply involved with, and which was usually at odds with the interests of those at higher levels. Strange to see what is so freely spent now compared to the pittance in contingencies and development budget I had to fight for every year. Anyway, I worked very hard to ensure parity under the rules and maximum performance relative to investment, while simultaneously squeezing the margins on the business side so the purchasing power of a huge company could directly benefit a grassroots racer while still making adequate profit. The intent was that hard earned money be well spent, but that excess spending would bring no advantage. And this because I believe that people with lots of money don't need much help making or spending it, with the reverse being true the less money one has access to. And here with these prints and the same intent I find myself under suspicion, cast in the opposite light, that of the unscrupulous profiteer. Ironic.

Poopshovel - Southeast asia, and aside from my commisions most of the work is commercially oriented on the high end. I am 1st generation and have relatives that had contacts in the business. I don't think the other "assembly line" operations you bring up could provide the requisite quality. What I set up is an arrangement that is mutually beneficial and sustainable with high quality work that can be consistent over time. Everybody wins. But this is certainly the hard way to do things, since I pay artists upfront whether or not anything sells. Certainly the normal dealer model would be much less upfront investment, easier to market and better profit potential than this track, especially if I could get close to the typical commision rates for dealers. And I could look at great art whenever I want which is really why this whole thing started. Food for thought, definitely.

I enjoyed reading everything you just posted.

grpb wrote: 3Door4G - I looked at your facebook and the sketches look great, I think you're definitely on the right track.

Thank you! If you get a facebook up, let me know. I will definitely spread the word around.