Driving myself crazy and need some encouragement...

First off, sorry for the vague subject line, but while you're here you may as well read on! Haha. This will be venty, up-beat, angry, and physocolgically fascinating in one big, long post. You've been warned.

I've been with my company for 11 years. I was actually employee #3, and the first 2 are the owners (brothers). Over that time, I have assumed responsibilities that I never was tasked with handling when I originally started working here. That's natural I suppose. The company has done well- I mean, if it weren't it wouldn't be a company for 11 years. We now have 28 employees. I directly manage, delegate, oversee, and am responsible for 18 of them. I answer to the owners and noone else. I used to enjoy my job a lot, when I was doing field engineering and thinking things and working with my hands along side my computer.

Fast forward to now, and I have been pushed into a much more active sales/glad-handing role. I still manage the technical side, but now I am directly responsible for sales volume on top of that. That used to fall on the owners... You bring me the work, I do the work. I loved that simplicity. Now? Notsomuch. The dreaded 'sales targets' cliche is slowly draining every ounce of enjoyment from my daily life. I bring that crap home, stress about it overnight, and lash out on my lovely fiancee (who is a berkeleying saint, I swear it). I dislike my role in this company very very much so right now.

The worst part in my opinion, is that even with this increase in responsibilities there has been no increase in pay. I am making approximately $5000 LESS per year than I did my first year on the job. Every time the company does well, my sales targets increase unfairly to make bonuses unrealistic. I'll finally creep up to that number, hit it once, and repeat above circlejerk. I have voiced my displeasure with the owners several times on the matter. They promise that they are not doing anything nefarious and are treating me fairly, but that 'times are lean, and we have to be to survive'. It's gotten to the point where I want to quit and just work as a maintenance guy or consultant on my own. Whatever it takes to pay the bills... Lately, between my reduction in pay and a host of bills from a prior divorce, I've picked up a warehouse job to make ends meet, which just makes me a peach to be around at all times. I've worked no less than 65 hours a week for 4 months now... I'm just berkeleying tired and feel like I'm on the verge of an exhaustion-related breakdown.

BUT! There's good news! Through some sort of cosmic divine intervention, I quite literally tripped into an opportunity to interview for my dream job 2 weeks ago. It could not be any more perfect, except I'm underqualified for what they're looking for. I interviewed with the manager last week, and got invited back to interview again with the 2 partners on Tuesday of this week. In all honesty, I thought they were going to offer me the job on the spot, that's how well I felt* during the interview. It was comfortable, I had a perfect answer for everything, and at the end, they brought me around to meet the rest of the staff. I was optimistic and happy for the first time in a long time. They said that they'd let me know one way or another within a week.

Now... I'm second guessing everything as time goes by without hearing anything from them. I'm worried that with time will come more qualified and better applicants, or if I was too much during the interview or if I really just bombed it but thought I did well. Basically, I have zero confidence or patience in myself, and don't know what to do. I'm using what precious little sleep I can get right now by tossing, turning, and just fantasizing about this job. I want it so freaking bad that I would do illegal things to obtain it... I promised myself and my fiancee that I would try to keep an even keel and not get my hopes up, but that's an outright lie. It's a dream job, and I know they don't come along much more than 1 or 2 times in a lifetime. I know I've done everything I can, but I just want to do more... anything to get out of my current situation and into something where I don't dread going into every day. And Wednesday is just so far away...

I don't know why I wrote this, aside from I just needed to say something. I'll be gutted if I don't get this job... so bad. I don't know how much more I can take this before I pull an Office Space move and burn every bridge in my profession. Honestly. If I don't get this job, I'm not sure what else is out there. I swore I'd never sell out to competitors, but my bosses also swore that they wouldn't abuse my skills and loyalty.

And to bring it full circle, punch you in the dick type ragey- They did some shady stuff to me 2 months ago where they took 2 of my bigger clients and decided that they were 'house customers' on account of them being with us for so long, and now their numbers no longer count toward my sales figures (ugh!). That's another bonus gone. Well, guess who showed up with MATCHING brand-new F-350 Lariat crew cab 4x4 diesels last week? Nothing like $150k in company trucks that aren't used for company purposes to keep employee morale up. If you need me, I'll be in the Frito-Lay warehouse, loading chips into trucks for $16/hour so I don't get arrested for failure to pay alimony.

Please pray for me. Haha.

I'm sorry about the situation, and hopeful for your next step (I think you've got the job), and I'm also confused about why alimony is a thing in this day and age of equal rights.

Wow! Thanks for sharing with us, your family.

Let's talk about this new amazing opportunity. What is the time frame for them to make a decision? That is a fair question to ask them.

If you do not get this job, it will hurt, but that is temporary. Use the experience to knock on another door (I know you don't like sales) But you seem to be excellent at selling yourself.

You current employer is not taking your desires into there decisions. This will hurt them in the long run. Leaving them seems like the right direction, just be sure to do that on YOUR terms and YOUR time frame.

Take a few minutes during the day to close your eyes and recharge and put on a happy face to get through the day.

Your future is bright and will involve a career with someone who values your contribution.

The company owners are being selfish monstrous dicks and it's time to play hardball. The good news is that your job security there is better than you think it is. My sister was in a pretty similar position, being overworked at a small company with selfish dick owners, and she's rolling in dough now because she played hardball, just got a company car in fact.

Demand a pay increase and a reasonable sales target system or you walk. They will almost certainly give it to you, if they don't, well then you should want to get the hell out of there as soon as possible anyway because this E36 M3 isn't going to get better on its own.

As for the dream job, you can poke them for a response by sending a "thank you for the interview" letter...it's better than nothing.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

Given the hardball that they have played, I would not trust them. I'd just bail with a new job.

If you don't get the one you are looking at, keep trying. Keep trying really hard!

I'm with alfadriver on this.

Current company owners have been screwing you for a long time. If you don't get the "Dream Job" keep looking. You sound talented enough to handle many challenges. You may lose this round but keep fighting.

Jeebus, I knew it was bad, but not quite that bad.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I've been lobbying for a fixed/capped sales target for 2 years now, but they've said no based on 'market vulnerability'. Funny that my sales target has never actually gone down because of it though. I guess it's like property taxes in that regard.

And I understand the need to play hardball, but it's just that I am not a risk-taker and wouldn't do it unless I had something else lined up, or at the very least a fallback plan. Aside from selling out to a competitor, which is still something I struggle with morally, I'm not sure what I can do aside from keep plugging away and applying to all the positions and seeing what hits.

GameboyRMH wrote: The company owners are being selfish monstrous dicks and it's time to play hardball. The good news is that your job security there is better than you think it is. My sister was in a pretty similar position, being overworked at a small company with selfish dick owners, and she's rolling in dough now because she played hardball, just got a company car in fact. Demand a pay increase and a reasonable sales target system or you walk. They will almost certainly give it to you, if they don't, well then you should want to get the hell out of there as soon as possible anyway because this E36 M3 isn't going to get better on its own. As for the dream job, you can poke them for a response by sending a "thank you for the interview" letter...it's better than nothing.

Did the 'thank you' emails already, got very pleasant and encouraging replies in return, but appreciate the advice regardless. It's still making me neurotic and thinking I somehow messed things up during the interview and wasn't cognizant enough to realize it in real-time. That's probably just my personality, granted, but it's still a very difficult feeling to contain.

How big is the company you interviewed with?

Having been on the other side of hiring - even if they really like you, there are a bunch of hoops they probably have to jump through with HR, the hiring manager, finance, blah blah blah. One person being on vacation for a few days can slow down the whole thing. Just have to be patient, as hard as that is.

It's not huge... about 30 people total and pretty small-but-active management/ownership. It's actually another startup- sort of an expanding offshoot of an established arm of their business. It'd be cozy and personal to start.

The Peter Principle

Could it be wise, to have a real conversation with the current gig that you may have hit your max capability?
It is possible that all could be better served if you moved back down one rung on the ladder?

Of course, I'm hoping the new gig comes through for you.

Keep trying to not let your anxiety get the best of you on the new opportunity. You have the ability to read people well, and I'm sure you were as good as you thought you were. They could be feeling out a few other applicants for thoroughness sake. It's not a job that has a large pool of perfectly qualified applicants and I'm sure the fact that you're local to them already will be a plus in your favor.

As for the current dick-munches, they've been pulling this E36 M3 with you for years. Even if you did try hardball with them, I think they'd call you on it because they've been able to get away with it for so long. It's clear they don't comprehend how much of their success is because of you.

I'm amazed that you don't think you could walk into any number of places within an hours drive of you and get an offer. I'm 100% positive you could. You have proven successful management and engineering skills. Any hiring manager worth half their own salary is going to recognize that if you present yourself.

It's time to go. Now that the decision is made, try and take comfort in that while dealing with their bullE36 M3. Who cares if you don't make those sales numbers, you're leaving! Then put all that energy into the search instead.

I know there are some extra familial ties that make burning the bridge of going to a competitor even more challenging, but I think you need to have faith in your family and how they'll react. They know you, the situation you're in, and they'll be ok with it. They may not like it, but they'll get it and I doubt hold it against you.

If anyone hasn't noticed, Bluej and I are very close childhood friends, so he has been dealing with my issues and neuroses for over 20 years now, haha.

But thanks man. I'm trying to stay positive. I really am. It's a miracle that I haven't lost my E36 M3 yet here. I'm quite impressed at my ability to 'keep it together' for so long... I just don't know how much more time I have before that proves itself to be false, haha.

Yeah, the burning the candle at both ends bit is going to catch up eventually. At least the alimony ends in October, right? Might seem like forever, but it'll come faster than you think.

Doing my stint at that chip-haus, one of the worst things about it was how it left so much time for your mind to wander as the stuff you were doing didn't require a large amount of mental energy.

1. They are SCREWING you at your current position. I have been there, believe me. They will continue to do it for as long as they can, and when you announce you are leaving, they will make a bunch of promises that they will never keep. If you leave, they will shed ZERO tears and move on and screw the next guy. LEAVE ASAP, do not look back, do not take their calls once you are gone.

2. The position you interviewed with is coming, no doubt about it. There is just a lot of paperwork, and with the end of the year and kicking off the new year and Mary being out because of her uncle...it's just taking time. The call will come and you will be in a better place in a few weeks.

golfduke wrote: Aside from selling out to a competitor, which is still something I struggle with morally, I'm not sure what I can do aside from keep plugging away and applying to all the positions and seeing what hits.

You've mentioned "competitors" twice. Whose competitor are they? They're certainly not your competitor, especially with how your current employers have treated you. There's no moral problem with leaving a company to work for their competition - that is exactly what happens almost every time a person changes jobs. Otherwise you'd have to reinvent your career every time you went to a different employer.

My neighbors are a married couple that work for different local construction firms. They manage to sleep in the same bed while being employed by competitors. I'm sure you can work it out if a family member somehow has a role in the company you're leaving.

dculberson wrote: You've mentioned "competitors" twice. Whose competitor are they? They're certainly not *your* competitor, especially with how your current employers have treated you. There's no moral problem with leaving a company to work for their competition - that is exactly what happens almost every time a person changes jobs. Otherwise you'd have to reinvent your career every time you went to a different employer.

+1, this company sure doesn't show any moral obligation to you, why do you feel any moral obligation to them? You should feel zero guilt taking up a job with a competitor and smile the whole way over there.

GameboyRMH wrote:

dculberson wrote: You've mentioned "competitors" twice. Whose competitor are they? They're certainly not *your* competitor, especially with how your current employers have treated you. There's no moral problem with leaving a company to work for their competition - that is exactly what happens almost every time a person changes jobs. Otherwise you'd have to reinvent your career every time you went to a different employer.

+1, this company sure doesn't show any moral obligation to you, why do you feel any moral obligation to them? You should feel zero guilt taking up a job with a competitor and smile the whole way over there.

+2 on this. That's just how it works. You have no moral or legal obligations towards them.

And don't give up. I am going through a tough time myself, but your thread makes me realise that I could have it much worse. I salute all the effort you are giving to do the right thing.

When I first started reading this thread, I was going to say, "Yeah, that's classic for a small company: put an in-house guy into sales because why would we hire someone new?" Then I read about the constantly receding sales targets and the house customers, uh, let's call it "nonsense." THEN I read about the brand new trucks.

OK, these guys are screwing you. The financial aspect is bad enough, but they are also messing with your mind and your self-confidence. Everyone who has posted has had good things to say. Make up your mind you're going to leave, take your fiancee out for a nice dinner, and start the next chapter of your life.

Whether this new opportunity pans out or not, you need to be looking. The brothers are dicking you around. It won't get better. It almost sounds like they want you out.

Last job I had (you probably drank some of their sodapop recently, or maybe loaded it at the warehouse) sent a memo out: "Good news, bad news. The bad news is that we're no longer going to match your 401k contribution. The good news is that you can now wear blue jeans on any day of the week that you are not meeting with a customer, not just Fridays!! Isn't that great?" Doing the math, that was a 3% pay cut. I was not really OK with us not getting a pay raise for the previous 2 or 3 years (times are tough...) but cutting my existing pay was one step too far. See, I can read a 10K form. And they are on teh Intr4w3bz, y0, for publicly traded companies. Them top level management guys were doing great with the stock options through that whole period. Berkeley them. I worked there for 13 years. I emailed out 2 resumes, one of which even had the wrong email address encoded in it (Microsoft Word "helping me out".) 2 weeks later I had an offer letter in my hands. Buh-by.

I've mentioned in a few threads I just went to work for Oracle (well it was NetSuite until Jan 1 when we became Oracle employees).

My boss found my LinkedIn profile through one of my buddies that works here (also as a Tech Writer), I had 4 interviews in less than 2 weeks including providing writing samples and a brutal writing competency test.

2 days after my last interview they made my verbal offer, which I accepted.

It took another 3.5 weeks to get the "official" offer so I could put in my notice. Sometimes things just drag out.

Lets count up the red flags- less take home than you made a decade ago, ever increasing sales targets, and two new trucks.

It would have taken all my will power to not walk out the day the trucks showed up.

I've been in the position of being taken advantage of by employers, and seen it happen to others, but what you describe is monstrous. Like you, I'm risk averse, so I get the not wanting to play hardball without another option. I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your bosses, but this has NOTHING to do with morality. There's an old saying, "take care of the people who take care of you." Your bosses seem to be doing the exact opposite. Its a testament to your character that you don't feel fantastic about going to a competitor, but at this point I'd say you don't owe the company much of anything, let alone loyalty. If you can walk to a competitor, do it. If they try to keep you, don't stay.

I've been there, I know how it feels to have the alternate job opportunity feel like a lifeline. Thing is, even if this one doesn't work out there will be others, and you have to keep telling yourself that.

fanfoy wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

dculberson wrote: You've mentioned "competitors" twice. Whose competitor are they? They're certainly not *your* competitor, especially with how your current employers have treated you. There's no moral problem with leaving a company to work for their competition - that is exactly what happens almost every time a person changes jobs. Otherwise you'd have to reinvent your career every time you went to a different employer.

+1, this company sure doesn't show any moral obligation to you, why do you feel any moral obligation to them? You should feel zero guilt taking up a job with a competitor and smile the whole way over there.

+2 on this. That's just how it works. You have no moral or legal obligations towards them.

Well, you have a moral and legal obligation not to abuse company proprietary information if you take a similar job at a competitor. So, for example, you can't take the customer contact list with you when you go from company A to company B.

There may also be non-compete agreements in force. The enforceability of these varies widely between states (in CA they're pretty much all non-enforceable, for example), but it could make things more complicated.

But I am totally in agreement that you should not view it as "selling out to a competitor". From your description, you are an employee, not an owner. You're selling your skills and expertise to your employer, and if they're not willing to pay market rates, then selling them to someone else instead is nothing to be ashamed of.

If you do get the new job, your employers will likely realize that they've pushed too far and try to negotiate something to keep you. Avoid that. IMHO, if an employer is oblivious enough that you have to go get another job offer to make them see sense regarding compensation then it's already too late.

As for the wait time for an offer, I also agree not to give up. To you the job offer is a huge deal, but to your prospective future employer it's just one of many job offers they're going to give this year, and lots of other things wind up taking priority. It could be stuck waiting for someone to sign off on it, but he's out sick, or on vacation. Stuff like that.